What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Postby Zenofex » Oct 4 2010, 20:32

There are certain contradictions in the descriptions in question, one being that Zydar, who is an Efreet according to the manual, "shows more promise than any of his demonkin" when it comes to spell casting. It could be just a note for his allegiance to Inferno though, not a non-deliberate mistake. There is certain ambiguity in the sources that can help one classify the Pit Fiends and even the Demons as Kreegans, but most likely they are indeed.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 4 2010, 20:37

Zenofex wrote:The Kreegans are called "devils" ever since their landing during the Night of the Shooting Stars. That's M&M VI stuff and I guess it's normal that you don't know about it. Exactly which creatures in the Inferno towns are not Kreegans is one slippery topic, but it IS certain that not all of them are.


I know that the Kreegans are called devils. However devils are a particular creature that is part of the Kreegan army. A particularly nasty creature that can kill dozens of normal men without incurring even a scratch.

The Kreegans are an army/faction and devils are a minuscule portion of the Kreegan army/faction.

Zenofex wrote:I've never claimed that most of the Inferno creatures are not Kreegans, but that not all of them are and that we don't know for certain which exactly are. The rest I read in the games. Here you should fall silent.


The Efreet seem to be fiery version of the genies so probably aren't Kreegans but native to Colony.

If you want me to believe that not all the creatures in the Inferno lineup are Kreegans, I am going to require some actual references.

Zenofex wrote:OK, what's the point here? The Kreegans, in order to sustain their life cycle, clearly consume or at least want the resources that every other sentient race on the planet needs badly - are you denying even this now or what? And yes, they are doing it in a violent, intolerant manner which is in direct odds with the well-being of the native population. There - you have the concept of war. One would think that this is self-explanatory. :disagree:


The point is that the Kreegans cannot eat lava. What has to be explained is why a world under the domination of the Kreegans is an ocean of lava, this is how it is depicted in Heroes IV.

Corlagon wrote:The Efreeti and Gogs 100% certainly are not Kreegans because they're active on Enroth in MM8, in which several NPCs state all the Kreegans on Enroth are dead and/or gone.
The Imps almost certainly aren't Kreegans because they're present on Axeoth long before MM8 and yet Escaton has completely ignored their presence.
The Cerberi and Venom Spawn are simply creatures and couldn't be classified as Kreegans themselves, any more so than a Unicorn could be called an Elf.


Given we know that the Kreegans were still a threat in Enroth just before the Reckoning, whether they are present in Might and Magic VIII is rather a mute point.

None of the Inferno creatures are Hive-Kreegans, the Gate-Kreegans are invisible to the defenses the Ancients placed on their planets, defenses like Escaton because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to manifest through the magical nexus in the first place.


Macros the Black wrote:Note that the Plane of Fire is just one of four elemental planes, there's also a plane of water, air and earth. You can travel to all four in Might and Magic 8. The Plane of Fire houses gogs, efreeti and fire elementals. No Devils.


The Gate-Kreegans did not emerge from the plane of fire, they emerged from the 'Fiery Realm'.

This is both a planet under the dominion of the Kreegans and some kind of plane from which 'the demons draw their power from'. This is referenced to Heroes IV death campaign.
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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 4 2010, 21:26

I know that the Kreegans are called devils. However devils are a particular creature that is part of the Kreegan army. A particularly nasty creature that can kill dozens of normal men without incurring even a scratch.


Once again you're wrong.

Devils are not a minuscule part of the Kreegans. The Enrothians call the Kreegans devils, because they look like mythical devils.

This is why I believe, that the only Kreegan unit in the Inferno, is the Devil (But most likely also the Pit Fiend), although Gogs would fit the Devil description.
Imps are also called Familiars, as in summoned creatures.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 4 2010, 22:17

Secret_Holder wrote:Once again you're wrong.

Devils are not a minuscule part of the Kreegans. The Enrothians call the Kreegans devils, because they look like mythical devils.

This is why I believe, that the only Kreegan unit in the Inferno, is the Devil (But most likely also the Pit Fiend), although Gogs would fit the Devil description.
Imps are also called Familiars, as in summoned creatures.


I was making strictly factual statements about the status of Devils in the Inferno army lineup? I am not *wrong* there.

They are a minuscule part of the Kreegan army.

Which means if you and Xenofex are right as to them being the only true Kreegans, then the Kreegans as such are no longer the major part of the Kreegans own army. Why were they were reduced to such a marginal and elite role in their own army?

It is clear (and that is what matters) that the people of the Heroes III world do not restrict the definition of Kreegan to those marginal elite units known as Devils, else to speak of the "Kreegans invading such and such place" would be a bit like them saying in relation to the elves of AvLee.

"The Green Dragons are invading such and such place"
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 4 2010, 22:22

Devils are not a minuscule part of the Kreegans. The Enrothians call the Kreegans devils, because they look like mythical devils.

This. Also:

If you want me to believe that not all the creatures in the Inferno lineup are Kreegans, I am going to require some actual references.

You have already been answered multiple times by several other people, including me, do I need to repeat it all over again? If you just want to believe that Inferno is almost full of Kreegans (at least we made you admit that the Efreeti aren't Kreegans... some achievement), go ahead, but at least stop writing this nonsense here. Someone with poor knowledge of the series (equal to yours or even worse, if this is possible at all) could take it as a fact.

The point is that the Kreegans cannot eat lava. What has to be explained is why a world under the domination of the Kreegans is an ocean of lava, this is how it is depicted in Heroes IV.

Find me what they DO eat and I will be willing to argue. Until then, I'm done re-typing the same answer for the N-th time.

Given we know that the Kreegans were still a threat in Enroth just before the Reckoning, whether they are present in Might and Magic VIII is rather a mute point.

None of the Inferno creatures are Hive-Kreegans, the Gate-Kreegans are invisible to the defenses the Ancients placed on their planets, defenses like Escaton because otherwise they wouldn't have been able to manifest through the magical nexus in the first place.

You won't stop inventing totally new lore, will you? Hell, people like you can prove to themselves that Atlantis existed and was sunk by highly intelligent alien pink ponies using plasma cannons to destroy the native evil yellow ponies who threatened the aesthetic order of the universe. What's the point in countering your thesis with whatever arguments, I begin to wonder...
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Postby XEL II » Oct 5 2010, 9:23

It appears that there is a mistake in the manul about Zydar's race, just like there is a mistake about Xeron's race in AB manual (he is called Efreeti).
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Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 5 2010, 18:12

Xeron's race is clearly a mistake, but I highly doubt if Zydar's is. Look here:

http://3do.xsa1.com/support/pc_support. ... ead.htm#02

The AB readme clearly states that RoE manual had some mistakes; however, they were apparently all fixed. I doubt that they could have left a mistake in after checking it twice, especially since other heroes' races were fixed! Besides, Zydar looks a lot like Xyron, just that the latter is just a bit more fiery.

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Postby Zenofex » Oct 5 2010, 19:19

It's almost certain that Zydar is an Efreet (see below), I was just saying that certain sources aren't completely reliable.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 5 2010, 20:03

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Given we know that the Kreegans were still a threat in Enroth just before the Reckoning


I'll be rejecting that again, thank you. I have to opine that a small mention about possible Devil problems from crazy Nicolai in MM9 isn't substantial enough to support a conclusion that the Kreegans re-invaded Enroth, counteracting H4 in the process.

About all this lava-eating/resisting stuff, here's a blurb from Xeron's viewpoint in H3:AB (and Xeron is only half-Kreegan!).

Maker of Sorrows wrote:Washes of heat are coming from down this passageway. Perhaps a nice cozy lava pool is up ahead. At least there you could relax and loosen up the toughness of your muscles. However, with your luck, you're not too hopeful of that.


I don't think Zydar's given race is a mistake, but either way it's certain from MM8 and H4 that the Efreeti are unrelated to the Kreegans.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 5 2010, 20:18

It's a little bit weird, that the image showing a Inferno hero against a Castle unit.
Was the original plan to have one castle hero, to be an angel?

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 5 2010, 20:50

Corlagon wrote:I'll be rejecting that again, thank you. I have to opine that a small mention about possible Devil problems from crazy Nicolai in MM9 isn't substantial enough to support a conclusion that the Kreegans re-invaded Enroth, counteracting H4 in the process.


Nicolai isn't crazy. He doesn't know what happened that is true but in no sense does his explanation of events make sense if the Kreegans aren't in Enroth, let alone if they are defeated and destroyed utterly.

Given we do not know anything about what happened in Enroth before the Reckoning it will have to do. Comparatively your argument might have weight, but we have no contradicting evidence as to what was going on in Enroth immediately before the Reckoning.

Corlagon wrote:About all this lava-eating/resisting stuff, here's a blurb from Xeron's viewpoint in H3:AB (and Xeron is only half-Kreegan!).

Maker of Sorrows wrote:Washes of heat are coming from down this passageway. Perhaps a nice cozy lava pool is up ahead. At least there you could relax and loosen up the toughness of your muscles. However, with your luck, you're not too hopeful of that.


I don't think Zydar's given race is a mistake, but either way it's certain from MM8 and H4 that the Efreeti are unrelated to the Kreegans.


Efreeti are obviously the fiery equivalent of genies I agree that they are not Kreegans. However all the other creatures in the Inferno lineup are Kreegans.

It doesn't actually say there that he eats lava or that he even swims in it. Only that he finds the vicinity of a lava pool to be a cosy place to relax. We might consider it cosy to sit next to a fire, doesn't mean that we eat fire or that we can pass through it unharmed.

Gate-Kreegans draw their 'power' from the Fiery Realm and given that that realm is actually almost entirely lava, it is quite possible that in a sense they can draw energy from lava because it "helps" the connection.

The original Hive-Kreegans must eat the same things as normal biological creatures or else they would not pose such a threat to other life-forms. If you are immune to fire and eat lava, then the logical thing to do is hop into the nearest volcano and swim around in the magma for all eternity.
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Postby Corlagon » Oct 5 2010, 22:57

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:However all the other creatures in the Inferno lineup are Kreegans.


No. Not all of them.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 5 2010, 23:15

Nicolai isn't crazy.


Once again you're wrong. He's **** insane.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 6 2010, 5:41

And even if he weren't, there's nothing that says that he has to know/believe that all Kreegan are gone.
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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 6 2010, 12:34

Gaidal Cain wrote:And even if he weren't, there's nothing that says that he has to know/believe that all Kreegan are gone.


We already *know* the Kreegans weren't gone Gaidel Cain. Heroes IV says so and some Kreegan creatures (like imps) appear in Might and Magic IX.

Image

There is a devil problem, or else he wouldn't be talking about it with his GENERAL before the Reckoning.

Image

He falsely assumes that the Devils took over Castle Ironfist, which means that the Kreegans are in Enroth and pose some credible threat to the Enrothian State.

Neither canonical statements make sense without the Kreegans both surviving and returning to Enroth.
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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 6 2010, 13:10

We already *know* the Kreegans weren't gone Gaidel Cain. Heroes IV says so and some Kreegan creatures (like imps) appear in Might and Magic IX.


The fact that Kreegans made it to Axeoth, does not imply that the Kreegans returned to Enroth.
And Imps probably aren't Kreegans, because their upgraded form is Familiar, which is a summoned creature.

And lastly, nothing Nicolai says, can be taken at face value, because he's mad, crazy, bonkers etc. etc.

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Postby Bandobras Took » Oct 6 2010, 13:24

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:There is a devil problem, or else he wouldn't be talking about it with his GENERAL before the Reckoning.


Assuming he actually had a general at that point. He's totally out of his mind, remember? Joining the Circus ring any bells about a guy who's reverted to childhood?

He falsely assumes that the Devils took over Castle Ironfist, which means that the Kreegans are in Enroth and pose some credible threat to the Enrothian State.


Whoah. How does a totally false assumption work out to be a partially true fact? Everything Nicolai says about the devils ending the world is an assumption, including the part about discussing them with his "general."
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 6 2010, 14:39

Secret_Holder wrote:The fact that Kreegans made it to Axeoth, does not imply that the Kreegans returned to Enroth.
And Imps probably aren't Kreegans, because their upgraded form is Familiar, which is a summoned creature.

And lastly, nothing Nicolai says, can be taken at face value, because he's mad, crazy, bonkers etc. etc.


I never said it did imply they returned to Enroth. I know they did from the source. The Imps are Kreegans because no evidence exists that they are not considered to be Kreegans by the inhabitants of the game world; that their upgraded form is a summoned creature proves nothing because in Heroes IV even Devils are summoned creatures.

You have no evidence that Nicolai went mad. You have only your insane desire to absolutely contradict everything I have ever wrote.

Bandobras Took wrote:Assuming he actually had a general at that point. He's totally out of his mind, remember? Joining the Circus ring any bells about a guy who's reverted to childhood?


It is a sign of a person who now feels liberated from all his responsibilities and social status by the fact that the entire world he was king of has just gone away.

He doesn't care any more and can do whatever he wants. Instead of becoming King because that's what is expected of him, he can now do what he really wants to be.

Bandobras Took wrote:Whoah. How does a totally false assumption work out to be a partially true fact? Everything Nicolai says about the devils ending the world is an assumption, including the part about discussing them with his "general."


Because the basis of the false assumption reveals something about events before the reckoning. He would only assume that the Kreegans took Castle Ironfist if they are already in Enroth posing a threat.

This fits with the bit about talking with his general about the Kreegan problem. They were at war with the Kreegans in Enroth.
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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 6 2010, 14:46

You have no evidence that Nicolai went mad. You have only your insane desire to absolutely contradict everything I have ever wrote.


No, he's crazy. End of argument

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 6 2010, 15:25

Secret_Holder wrote:
You have no evidence that Nicolai went mad. You have only your insane desire to absolutely contradict everything I have ever wrote.


No, he's crazy. End of argument


He's not crazy, beginning of argument.
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