What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).

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Zenofex
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Postby Zenofex » Oct 2 2010, 16:15

No it isn't. My whole argumentation is built around Heroes IV Death Campaign and Might and Magic IX.

I'm quoting this just to make sure that you won't edit your post later and claim something else after you have finally finished the first 20% of the HoMM and M&M games which are relevant to the current discussion and which you haven't even bothered to check. Moving on:

If they have to go to so great lengths to create a volcano to summon them up, they must have grown awfully dependent on them, which given that those creatures are able to travel about freely asks the question of why weren't they at Colony Zog?

Because they are not Kreegans? Why don't you live in an ant-hill?

If they are clearly acting seperately, what is the functional difference between your "allies from the plane of fire" and my "Gate-Kreegans" other than that the former is a sentence and the latter a word?

The only creatures in the Inferno line-up that are clearly from the plane of fire are the Efreeti, which are NOT Kreegans. If you want evidence - read Xyron's description in HoMM IV, from what I remember it addresses the Kreegan - Efreeti alliance unambiguously. The Gogs seem to be native to Antagarich, as you can find them roaming areas well outside Eeofol in M&M VII. It could appear that even the Demons and the Pit Fiends aren't Kreegans, but some of the "real" demons on the planet - see HoMM Chronicles - Conquest of the Underworld. The only creatures in Inferno which are 100% Kreegan are the Devils - this is the Kreegans' "nickname" and they die in a fashion very similar to the devils from M&M VI (just to use your own reasoning again). So yes, all these allies are quite valuable and again - no, they are not Kreegans. Questions?

Whether the Kreegans wish it or not, turning the world into a fiery wasteland is the ultimate result of Kreegan domination

Whether the modern society wants it or not, turning the world into a polluted pigpen is the ultimate result of its domination. Therefore the modern society is actually a society of four-legged mammals that we know as pigs. Therefore I have just proven that we are all pigs.

Creating a volcano cannot be an easy feat (else we'd be able to use it to destroy annoying well-garrisoned fortified cities in the game).

Where did you read that in the game? How do you know how easy is it to create a volcano and what is the actual process of its creation? What happens if these volcanoes can be "created" only where you have pockets of magma relatively close to the surface? Or if the respective spell requires days or even weeks to be cast? Or... I hope you get the idea.

It's simple enough. Logically the Kreegans must eat more or less the same things as other biological creatures or else their multiplication and expansion would be no threat to those other creatures.

Sorry, this is pure nonsense and it contradicts even your own arguments. The Kreegans consume the resources of any planet they conquer, leaving it barren wasteland. What you are saying is that if some extraterrestrials now land on Earth, destroy all natural resources and leave, this will not be disastrous for us at all and even on the contrary - we will still have enough spare time to have pointless discussions on the Internet forums.
Again - we have no idea what do the Kreegans eat. And if we go back a little, the idea that they come to destroy, not to consume, is your own, so go argue with yourself about it.

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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 2 2010, 16:58

No it isn't. My whole argumentation is built around Heroes IV Death Campaign and Might and Magic IX.


This alone should exclude you from partaking in the discussion.

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Oct 2 2010, 17:35

Zenofex wrote:The only creatures in the Inferno line-up that are clearly from the plane of fire are the Efreeti, which are NOT Kreegans. If you want evidence - read Xyron's description in HoMM IV, from what I remember it addresses the Kreegan - Efreeti alliance unambiguously. The Gogs seem to be native to Antagarich, as you can find them roaming areas well outside Eeofol in M&M VII. It could appear that even the Demons and the Pit Fiends aren't Kreegans, but some of the "real" demons on the planet - see HoMM Chronicles - Conquest of the Underworld. The only creatures in Inferno which are 100% Kreegan are the Devils - this is the Kreegans' "nickname" and they die in a fashion very similar to the devils from M&M VI (just to use your own reasoning again). So yes, all these allies are quite valuable and again - no, they are not Kreegans. Questions?


Well that's new. Sources please to the effect that the majority of Inferno creatures are not even creatures. As far as I know, nobody's in the game ever restricted the use of the term Kreegan to the devils.

Zenofex wrote:Whether the modern society wants it or not, turning the world into a polluted pigpen is the ultimate result of its domination. Therefore the modern society is actually a society of four-legged mammals that we know as pigs. Therefore I have just proven that we are all pigs.


Yes the Hive-Kreegans believe that their gated allies serve them but actually they serve their allies.

Zenofex wrote:Where did you read that in the game? How do you know how easy is it to create a volcano and what is the actual process of its creation? What happens if these volcanoes can be "created" only where you have pockets of magma relatively close to the surface? Or if the respective spell requires days or even weeks to be cast? Or... I hope you get the idea.


Where did you read that most Inferno/Kreegan troops aren't even Kreegans Xenofex?

Logically it cannot be an easy or cheap process to make a volcano. Thus why would the Kreegans turn a planet into a lava sea?

Zenofex wrote:Sorry, this is pure nonsense and it contradicts even your own arguments. The Kreegans consume the resources of any planet they conquer, leaving it barren wasteland. What you are saying is that if some extraterrestrials now land on Earth, destroy all natural resources and leave, this will not be disastrous for us at all and even on the contrary - we will still have enough spare time to have pointless discussions on the Internet forums.
Again - we have no idea what do the Kreegans eat. And if we go back a little, the idea that they come to destroy, not to consume, is your own, so go argue with yourself about it.


If a form of creatures arrives that does not consume any of the same resources that I do, then it doesn't matter how much that creature multiplies or expands does it?

And I did not claim that the Kreegans come only to destroy, just that their nature is carefully sculpted by their creator to serve the ultimate purpose of destroying everything that the Ancients ever created, reducing everything to a uniform mass a lava.

This doesn't serve their purposes at all, but it isn't them that carries through the final stage is it?
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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 2 2010, 17:55

Yes the Hive-Kreegans believe that their gated allies serve them but actually they serve their allies


For Christ's sake stop inventing stuff, sp that your theory can make sense! You have no evidence for this!

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Postby Zenofex » Oct 2 2010, 18:00

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Well that's new.

You see, this is the problem. Almost everything is new to you. And I'm not talking about this particular case. If you want to learn about the different inhabitants of the Inferno towns, play the games, read the lore carefully, then apply this "logic" that you so adore.
The Kreegans are called "devils" ever since their landing during the Night of the Shooting Stars. That's M&M VI stuff and I guess it's normal that you don't know about it. Exactly which creatures in the Inferno towns are not Kreegans is one slippery topic, but it IS certain that not all of them are.

es the Hive-Kreegans believe that their gated allies serve them but actually they serve their allies.

Actually it's called sarcasm.

Where did you read that most Inferno/Kreegan troops aren't even Kreegans

I've never claimed that most of the Inferno creatures are not Kreegans, but that not all of them are and that we don't know for certain which exactly are. The rest I read in the games. Here you should fall silent.

If a form of creatures arrives that does not consume any of the same resources that I do, then it doesn't matter how much that creature multiplies or expands does it?

OK, what's the point here? The Kreegans, in order to sustain their life cycle, clearly consume or at least want the resources that every other sentient race on the planet needs badly - are you denying even this now or what? And yes, they are doing it in a violent, intolerant manner which is in direct odds with the well-being of the native population. There - you have the concept of war. One would think that this is self-explanatory. :disagree:

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 2 2010, 18:22

Notes on what is a Kreegan and what isn't:

All the enemies designated "Devil" or "Demon" in MM6 and MM7 definitely are Kreegans, no doubt about it.
Devils from HoMM absolutely are Kreegans, see H3: AB and H4 Death campaign for incontrovertible evidence.

The Efreeti and Gogs 100% certainly are not Kreegans because they're active on Enroth in MM8, in which several NPCs state all the Kreegans on Enroth are dead and/or gone.
The Imps almost certainly aren't Kreegans because they're present on Axeoth long before MM8 and yet Escaton has completely ignored their presence.
The Cerberi and Venom Spawn are simply creatures and couldn't be classified as Kreegans themselves, any more so than a Unicorn could be called an Elf.

Ice Demons I have no clue about.

Demons and Pit Fiends almost certainly ARE Kreegans, as the heroes whose race is given as "Demon" in H3 and 4 are clearly Kreegans themselves (Calh, Nymus, Grok and so on).

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:If they are clearly acting seperately, what is the functional difference between your "allies from the plane of fire" and my "Gate-Kreegans" other than that the former is a sentence and the latter a word?


Because, unlike Efreeti and Gogs, the Kreegans aren't from the Plane of Fire and have absolutely nothing to do with it. They wouldn't need any volcanoes.
Last edited by Corlagon on Oct 2 2010, 20:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Zenofex » Oct 2 2010, 20:52

Demons and Pit Fiends almost certainly ARE Kreegans, as the heroes whose race is given as "Demon" in H3 and 4 are clearly Kreegans themselves (Calh, Nymus, Grok and so on)

Agreed, I forgot about this part.

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Postby ThunderTitan » Oct 2 2010, 20:59

You guys are actually still arguing with Slayer... and i though i liked wasting time.

BTW, is there any explanation of why the Kreegans where insectoid in M&M and Demons&Pit Lords in H3?!
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Postby Secret_Holder » Oct 2 2010, 21:12

Well, actually the devils in MM6 and HoMM3 look very much alike. The pit lords are a mystery though.

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 2 2010, 21:17

ThunderTitan wrote:BTW, is there any explanation of why the Kreegans where insectoid in M&M and Demons&Pit Lords in H3?!


There sure is - different art directors.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 3 2010, 5:08

Actually, Pit Fiend/Lords are an offshot preapred by Kreegans for initial attack on Erathia. This is stated in Nymus's biography. Horned Demons from Inferno are created by Pit Lords.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Macros the Black » Oct 3 2010, 17:53

Note that the Plane of Fire is just one of four elemental planes, there's also a plane of water, air and earth. You can travel to all four in Might and Magic 8. The Plane of Fire houses gogs, efreeti and fire elementals. No Devils.
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Postby GreatEmerald » Oct 3 2010, 18:22

Macros the Black wrote:You can travel to all four in Might and Magic 8.

And MM2 :)

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Postby tolich » Oct 3 2010, 18:22

Macros the Black wrote:The Plane of Fire houses gogs, efreeti and fire elementals.

As well as one Phoenix... I mean this plane is not Kreegan's outpost.

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Postby Gaidal Cain » Oct 3 2010, 18:58

XEL II wrote:Actually, Pit Fiend/Lords are an offshot preapred by Kreegans for initial attack on Erathia. This is stated in Nymus's biography. Horned Demons from Inferno are created by Pit Lords.


Nymus bio wrote:Nymus was responsible for training Pit Fiends and Pit Lords for the attack on Erathia. Her combat skills nearly led Eeofol to complete victory, but the deal between the Kreegans and Dungeon Overlords brought the initial campaign to an early end.


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Postby XEL II » Oct 3 2010, 19:06

But it's established that they are trained by Kreegans.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 3 2010, 20:10

I think it's pretty safe to assume the Pit Fiends are Kreegans just like standard Demons, though of course it isn't really confirmed anywhere (that I know of). The only real clue is the fact they don't appear on Enroth before the Night of Shooting Stars and there's no evidence of their continued existence after the Ironfists left Antagarich.

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Postby XEL II » Oct 4 2010, 7:04

If CotD takes place after AB (which is most likely true, acording to the information from Playing With Fire), some Inferno creatures are fighting on Mutare's side during her war against AvLee.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Oct 4 2010, 16:41

XEL II wrote:most likely true


That's more like it, thanks. :P

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Postby XEL II » Oct 4 2010, 16:53

It is stated pretty clearly in Playing With Fire. Of course, we can disregard this Tavern rumor, but it's still canonical part of storywriting.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark


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