What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

[Secret_Holder]

Yes, but couldn't Melian be a supercomputer and a Guardian?

[Zenofex]

And they're really not that smart. They're sentient, but their society is much like ants. There's no way workers could feign death or shapeshift.

Disagreed with this part. The regural Kreegan "grunt" may not be exactly intelligent (just like the regular human isn't), but you are forgetting that we're talking about space-faring civilization here. They are hive-based species, but they should at least have one caste of scientists, generals and leaders. In M&M VI Zenofex orchestrates the capture of Roland and the foundation of the Cult of Baa and I think you'll agree that no ant is that creative.
Also their ships are described like meteorites just because they've only been seen like this by the Enrothians who observed the Night of the Shooting Stars. This thing here is way to geometrical and... well, high-tech to be your ordinary skep:



The Kreegans are technologically advanced - enough to disrupt the communication within the Web of the Worlds and force the Ancients to wage quite uncompromising war (Escaton) - and this can not be achieved by some semi-sentient beings.

[GreatEmerald]

You didn't read me right, I said "They're sentient". I'm just saying that there is no way that *every single Kreegan* would be able to shapeshift or employ advanced deception tactics. Generals/queens, maybe. But still, they'd rather just use transporters and such - they're technologically, not supernaturally advanced.

[Secret_Holder]

I don't think that the geometry of their Hive, is proof of higher intelligence. See for example a bee-hive:



But nonetheless, I believe they have to be "highly intelligent". Or at least the upper Kreegan hierarchy. Don't know about the "worker bees"

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

Yea, Slayer, you're still making things up... They're not shapeshifters. They look like demons and fly in ships that look like asteroids. They could have just bombarded the Fiery realm and hence the Undead there. Or maybe Gauldoth's master created all of them. Or both.
And they're really not that smart. They're sentient, but their society is much like ants. There's no way workers could feign death or shapeshift.

The Kreegans are not shapeshifters, unless it is a form of Kreegan that shape shifts.

Instead they are a group of creatures with different forms but the same ultimate origin. Each form of Kreegan exists an lives according to a logic, a logic that the Kreegans higher up in heirachy gave it (who themselves have their higher-ups). It's indeed a bit like ants, it's just that unlike with ants, the well-being and survival of the ants is not the objective of Kreegan society.

As is revealed in Heroes IV death campaign, the Kreegans ultimate objective in conquest is to merge everything existing into a uniform mass of magma called the 'Fiery Realm', in which the only features that exist are directly related to invading and destroying more worlds.

The apex of the Kreegan heirachy is the Fiery Realm itself. In the end all Kreegan creatures are destroyed and merged into the Fiery Realm, the sentient mass of magma from which the Kreegans came and the propagation of which into yet another world is the only true purpose.

But the Fiery Realm preserves within itself all technology, all life forms it finds might be useful to it's own expansion. The space-Kreegans come from a particular Fiery Realm, one that had before it's destruction a civilization capable of space-travel. In a crude fashion, it throws out ships filled with creatures whose purpose is to 'travel, land and conquer'.

You didn't read me right, I said "They're sentient". I'm just saying that there is no way that *every single Kreegan* would be able to shapeshift or employ advanced deception tactics. Generals/queens, maybe. But still, they'd rather just use transporters and such - they're technologically, not supernaturally advanced.

Remember the purpose of the Kreegans is not to march armies about, to colonize, build cities, invent technology, live, love and breed.

The only real purpose of the Kreegans is to turn everything into the Fiery Realm. They are living weapons at the service of destruction.

Having landed in another world, the Kreegans proceed to set up Infernos. Infernos are portals through the magma at the core of every planet to the Fiery Realm itself. A new breed of Kreegans is then born after the image of the world that is being invaded.

And when enough of the world is sufficiently covered in Infernos, then the world will be pulled through into the Fiery Realm itself and become a mere extension of it.

I don't make this stuff up. The Kreegans of Heroes III were able to create a brand-new Inferno in southern Erathia by 'raising a volcano'. If you doubt this, start up the demon half of the Dungeons and Devils campaign and read the start blurb.

To dissapear isn't hard. All the Kreegans do is return, either to space or back to the Fiery Realm. They do this because as long as the Infernos (or the space-ships) remain intact they can always return again.

The funny thing is that dissapearing through their inferno portals, the Kreegans enemies then neglect to destroy every Inferno block by block, stone by stone. Thus they leave the gateway open for the Kreegans to come back, any time they feel like it.

[Zenofex]

But still, they'd rather just use transporters and such - they're technologically, not supernaturally advanced.

I'm not arguing about this at all. It just seemed that you downgraded their overall intelligence wee to much.

I don't think that the geometry of their Hive, is proof of higher intelligence. See for example a bee-hive

Heh, thanks, I've see them in the real world too, no need for such pics. What I mean is that the Kreegan ships aren't just some crude stone-like pseudo-ships, but high-tech vessels. In the actual in-game animation ralated to the picture above you can see the door opening and closing in a Star Trek fashion.

@Slayer, the Infernos are no space ships. And generally, you are really overdoing it with these theories of yours, learn the lore and then re-invent it if you want.

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

@Slayer, the Infernos are no space ships. And generally, you are really overdoing it with these theories of yours, learn the lore and then re-invent it if you want.

Huh I never said they were. I am saying that the Infernos are portals to the Fiery Realm and the original space-traveling Kreegans (the one's that you lot are arguing about) created them from volcanoes (which in some cases they actually created).

All the Kreegans (even the 'alien' one's) originally came from the fiery realm, but having conquered an advanced planet, the Fiery Realm used it to produce ships full of technologically advanced Kreegans.

But having landed, the first thing they did was open up new portals to summon up reinforcements of fresh Kreegans from the Fiery Realm itself (not from space).

I have evidence to this effect too. From this Scenario, called a Devilish Plan, the entry movie of which looks like this.



The evidence is here.



Why did they need to raise a volcano? Because the Kreegans were establishing a new Inferno to summon troops from the Fiery Realm and Infernos need access to magma, which is where the volcano comes in.

If all they come from space, why couldn't they just land?

[Secret_Holder]

I don't agree with this "fiery realm theory". Even though there's no proof of a Kreegan queen on Antagarich, I would presume, that a female Kreegan was upgraded to queen, once the Kreegans made it to Eofol.

So the queen is the source of the Kreegan troops

EDIT:

All the Kreegans (even the 'alien' one's) originally came from the fiery realm, but having conquered an advanced planet, the Fiery Realm used it to produce ships full of technologically advanced Kreegans.

Where is proof of this?

Please stop inventing lore. Play MM6.
MM6 intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Zfn4RXj2BA

[Tress]

Kreegans definately are intelligent. If I am correct in mm6 there is npc text that comments on kreegan intelligence that say that they are quite smart at least on par with humans. Also ants can create sophisticated hives but they certainly cant create mechanical fission reactor unless they know how to operate technology. Most likely they are way less advanced than ancients but they take compensate that in numbers. Kind of remind me of Stargate Atlantis wraiths that uses bio and technology fusion.

[GreatEmerald]

The Kreegans are not shapeshifters, unless it is a form of Kreegan that shape shifts.

Instead they are a group of creatures with different forms but the same ultimate origin. Each form of Kreegan exists an lives according to a logic, a logic that the Kreegans higher up in heirachy gave it (who themselves have their higher-ups). It's indeed a bit like ants, it's just that unlike with ants, the well-being and survival of the ants is not the objective of Kreegan society.

As is revealed in Heroes IV death campaign, the Kreegans ultimate objective in conquest is to merge everything existing into a uniform mass of magma called the 'Fiery Realm', in which the only features that exist are directly related to invading and destroying more worlds.

The apex of the Kreegan heirachy is the Fiery Realm itself. In the end all Kreegan creatures are destroyed and merged into the Fiery Realm, the sentient mass of magma from which the Kreegans came and the propagation of which into yet another world is the only true purpose.

But the Fiery Realm preserves within itself all technology, all life forms it finds might be useful to it's own expansion. The space-Kreegans come from a particular Fiery Realm, one that had before it's destruction a civilization capable of space-travel. In a crude fashion, it throws out ships filled with creatures whose purpose is to 'travel, land and conquer'.

No. Kreegans =/= Borg. Their purpose IS in fact the well-being and survival of their own race. They land on a planet and start living there. They get a population explosion. They fly elsewhere. They land. They continue the cycle. They don't want to destroy anything, they just want to breed, and since humans are interrupting them, they destroy them. Short-term plans can be more sophisticated, but in the long run, that's what their purpose is. Same with humans. They explore and colonise new worlds to keep them from extinction and provide well-being to every human.

About all the volcano stuff - they like hot places, that's all. And I don't see anything special in building forts or digging tunnels.

[Corlagon]

All the Kreegans (even the 'alien' one's) originally came from the fiery realm, but having conquered an advanced planet, the Fiery Realm used it to produce ships full of technologically advanced Kreegans.

No that is incorrect (or unconfirmable at best), like so many of the other wild interpretations you continue to post...
It's widely understood that the origin story of the Kreegans is contained in this passage from Might and Magic III (relevant part is bolded):

"The Ancients draw their power from the heat and light of stars to create intricated mechanism of society, then send these civilizations to cultivate developing worlds. The Creators exist in a nebulous realm where they construct their plots and create vile chaotic armies to disrupt the civilizations of the Ancients. Because of interference created by the renegade Guardian, Sheltem, the CRON and most of the VARNs carried by this vessel were lost in the Great Sea of Terra. This mission has been code named The Great Experiment. It extends further away from the seat of Ancients than any other colonization. It is under much greater threat from Creators. Spanning the farthest reaches of the universe, two super-developed societies, the Ancients and the Creators, are engaged in a galactic race for power."

"Vile chaotic armies [who] disrupt the civilizations of the Ancients" is a 100% accurate description of the Kreegans.
The Kreegans are definitely not just mindless marauders, by the way. Escaton commented in MM8 that they're far more advanced than the Enrothians.

[tolich]

I can only assume that the devils took the capital city.

Just an assumption, not an assertion.

[Nelgirith]

I can only assume that the devils took the capital city.

Just an assumption, not an assertion.

That's what we've been trying to make him understand for several pages (and several topics)

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

No. Kreegans =/= Borg. Their purpose IS in fact the well-being and survival of their own race. They land on a planet and start living there. They get a population explosion. They fly elsewhere. They land. They continue the cycle. They don't want to destroy anything, they just want to breed, and since humans are interrupting them, they destroy them. Short-term plans can be more sophisticated, but in the long run, that's what their purpose is. Same with humans. They explore and colonise new worlds to keep them from extinction and provide well-being to every human.

About all the volcano stuff - they like hot places, that's all. And I don't see anything special in building forts or digging tunnels.

The Fiery Realm is evidently not habitable even to the Kreegans (which include such things as Venom Spawn and Ice Demons). There is nothing there but a few lifeless islands amidst a sea of featureless lava with no physical way out.

I do not deny that the 'original' space-faring Kreegans objectives (the one's that appear in Might and Magic VI to VIII) are what you said. It is only their job to carry out Stage 1. That to remove all opposition from the planet that would 'get in the way' of the implementation of Stage 2 before moving on to carry out Stage 1 again.

Stage 2 is to turn the planet into an extension of the 'Fiery Realm'. Ultimate domination for the Kreegans is not to eat everything and then move on, it is to turn the planet into an extension of that realm. The Realm from which 'the demons draw their power'.

This objective is completely at odd with any biological imperative, why would a race of biological lifeforms deliberately turn a world into a ball of lava and confine themselves to a few tiny lifeless islands around a place that 'mysteriously enough' leads to another world? This is what the Fiery Realm looks like in Heroes IV (inform me of any other encounters with it).

As for what I said, no biological lifeform would naturally create a volcanic wasteland and a fort together, because they want the land around them to produce lots of food to feed their armies. That they created a volcano suggests they NEED a volcano.

MM3 wrote:
"The Ancients draw their power from the heat and light of stars to create intricated mechanism of society, then send these civilizations to cultivate developing worlds. The Creators exist in a nebulous realm where they construct their plots and create vile chaotic armies to disrupt the civilizations of the Ancients. Because of interference created by the renegade Guardian, Sheltem, the CRON and most of the VARNs carried by this vessel were lost in the Great Sea of Terra. This mission has been code named The Great Experiment. It extends further away from the seat of Ancients than any other colonization. It is under much greater threat from Creators. Spanning the farthest reaches of the universe, two super-developed societies, the Ancients and the Creators, are engaged in a galactic race for power."

"Vile chaotic armies [who] disrupt the civilizations of the Ancients" is a 100% accurate description of the Kreegans.
The Kreegans are definitely not just mindless marauders, by the way. Escaton commented in MM8 that they're far more advanced than the Enrothians.

Funnily enough what you say fits well with what I have been saying about the Kreegans.

Perhaps the nebulous realm of these 'Creators' *is* the Fiery Realm. To expand their realm by destroying what the Ancients have create is what they desire.

Upon landing the space-faring Kreegans open up portals around volcanoes (which they would naturally keep secret from the local inhabitants) to the Fiery Realm which allows demon reinforcements to be sent. The draw back of this is that the resulting reinforcement creatures are typically far less advanced than the Kreegans that originally landed, since the Creators creations cannot be summoned onto Ancients worlds, without mimicking local creatures (else it would activate natural defense mechanisms to banish them).

Infernos (in Heroes III) are these portals, as a cursory glance at the buildings in the Inferno would suggest (there are no landing pads or space-elevators, nor high-tech weaponry; only magical portals).

If all goes well, the 'original' space-faring Kreegans conquer the world swiftly and move on, leaving the resulting world free for the Infernos to spread across the entire world unopposed.

But if they should fail to do this (as happened in Enroth), then Stage 2 is implemented and the Kreegans expand to create more Infernos without any real consideration for such things as 'breeding' or 'resources' except in so far as these are of military importance to conquering enemies that get in the way of building ever more Infernos.

The Infernos are portals to the Fiery Realm, if you build enough of them then the planet becomes a portal *to* the fiery realm.

[GreatEmerald]

The Fiery Realm is evidently not habitable even to the Kreegans (which include such things as Venom Spawn and Ice Demons). There is nothing there but a few lifeless islands amidst a sea of featureless lava with no physical way out.

I do not deny that the 'original' space-faring Kreegans objectives (the one's that appear in Might and Magic VI to VIII) are what you said. It is only their job to carry out Stage 1. That to remove all opposition from the planet that would 'get in the way' of the implementation of Stage 2 before moving on to carry out Stage 1 again.

Stage 2 is to turn the planet into an extension of the 'Fiery Realm'. Ultimate domination for the Kreegans is not to eat everything and then move on, it is to turn the planet into an extension of that realm. The Realm from which 'the demons draw their power'.

This objective is completely at odd with any biological imperative, why would a race of biological lifeforms deliberately turn a world into a ball of lava and confine themselves to a few tiny lifeless islands around a place that 'mysteriously enough' leads to another world? This is what the Fiery Realm looks like in Heroes IV (inform me of any other encounters with it).

As for what I said, no biological lifeform would naturally create a volcanic wasteland and a fort together, because they want the land around them to produce lots of food to feed their armies. That they created a volcano suggests they NEED a volcano.

The few islands that you've seen is NOT the whole planet, it's where Gauldoth arrived. And the portals there are gameplay mechanics. Besides, like I've said, Kreegans like hot places. Lava is hot. Thus Kreegans like to be near lava, or maybe even in lava, swimming around and such. Besides, they could be living underground, too - there are a lot of underground infernoes in HoMM games.

And Kreegan are aliens. Their biology is probably different from anything on Earth, but within the limits of common sense.

And the fact that there is nothing indicating that Kreegans are advanced in Infernoes is gameplay mechanics as well. NWC tried to add the Forge, and look what happened. Besides, the fact that they don't look high-tech on the outside doesn't say anything - they might simply not want to lose allies by looking out of the ordinary.

[XEL II]

Slayer, please stop inventing your own lore contradicting facts from all canonical games.

[Secret_Holder]

I must ask where Slayer gets this "portal opening" stuff. Have I missed something?

No, I believe there is a more "Darwinian" explanation. After having used all the resources on one planet, the Kreegans sent some ships to Enroth, to conquer and populate, which means destroying other species.

And as I've said before, if they have a Kreegan queen, they don't need portals.

[tolich]

And as I've said before, if they have a Kreegan queen, they don't need portals.

BTW, if they have portals, they'd better to hide own Queen in the safety of the Fiery World. Why they didn't?

[Slayer of Cliffracers]

The few islands that you've seen is NOT the whole planet, it's where Gauldoth arrived. And the portals there are gameplay mechanics. Besides, like I've said, Kreegans like hot places. Lava is hot. Thus Kreegans like to be near lava, or maybe even in lava, swimming around and such. Besides, they could be living underground, too - there are a lot of underground infernoes in HoMM games.

And Kreegan are aliens. Their biology is probably different from anything on Earth, but within the limits of common sense.

And the fact that there is nothing indicating that Kreegans are advanced in Infernoes is gameplay mechanics as well. NWC tried to add the Forge, and look what happened. Besides, the fact that they don't look high-tech on the outside doesn't say anything - they might simply not want to lose allies by looking out of the ordinary.

A biological life-form that is not immune to fire swimming around in lava is about as far from common sense as you can go. And where do Ice Demons appear in your little plan. They "like it hot" do they? And they are 'biological' in what way?

I give you a description of what a world that has been conquered by the Kreegans looks like and you dismiss it as gameplay mechanics. So much for providing any actual evidence to you lot.

If the Kreegans had all the technology you say they have, along with the numbers they have in the game, then they would devour everything in Enroth with no need for allies of any kind. To fight 100 Kreegans without 10,000 men of your own would be suicide.

They never added the Forge to any Heroes III game, if they did so I would know about it. They thought of adding it and decided otherwise for quite sensible reasons.

I must ask where Slayer gets this "portal opening" stuff. Have I missed something?

No, I believe there is a more "Darwinian" explanation. After having used all the resources on one planet, the Kreegans sent some ships to Enroth, to conquer and populate, which means destroying other species.

And as I've said before, if they have a Kreegan queen, they don't need portals.

Ask where I get the portal opening stuff from, pay attention. Gauldoth opens up a portal to the Fiery Realm by destroying a magical item called the Angel's Blade, which he reasons can only be so effective against demons if it is linked to the realm 'from which the demons gain their power'. He does this along the magical "ley lines" of Axeoth.

He doesn't build any space-ships, nor does he find an existent portal that the Kreegans have already made to their world. He makes a portal to the 'Fiery Realm' all on his own. The 'Fiery Realm' is a world that has 'known the dominion of the Kreegans'.

There is nothing on that world except a few islands around the portal Gauldoth created and an endless sea of fire. Biological creatures do not do that to a world.

That he does so along the magical ley lines is crucial, he cannot do so anywhere. And most importantly if Gauldoth can do that, so can the Kreegans in Enroth. If I were to open up a portal along every key point, the whole planet could then become a portal to the 'Fiery Realm' couldn't it? And then the Fiery Realm could 'emerge' and consume the entire planet in fire?

Inferno cities are evidently complexes of magical portals, not hives of high-tech aliens with queens and all that stuff.

The ultimate objective of the Kreegans is to create an endless sea of fire where the only features allowed to exist are strictly functional, with that function being to send creatures to another world and conquer.

All Kreegan creatures will ultimately be sacrificed, as I said to start off with, the well being of the Kreegan is not the final objective of the Kreegans. The Kreegans obviously don't know it, which makes the whole system all the more efficient.

The hive-kreegans with their hives and their endless appetites are no exception. They are allowed to land on the world and devour it's inhabitants, because once the inhabitants are gone and they have moved on, nothing will get in the way of covering the entire world in Infernos and thus expanding the Fiery Realm to yet another world.

[GreatEmerald]

No. Nothing makes sense.

Not immune to fire, you say? Well, take that:

22 Devil Worker Devil A 30 180 25 1200 0 1 N Med Suicidal 2 200 60 0 Disease2 Phys 2D6+8 Fire 0 0 0 0 20 "Fireball,E,6" 0 0 Imm 20 20 20 Imm 25 20 20 20 20 0
23 Devil Warrior Devil B 50 400 35 3000 0 1 N Med Aggress 2 250 50 0 Disease3 Phys 2D6+14 Fire 0 0 0 0 20 "Fireball,E,8" 15 "Meteor Shower,M,8" Imm 30 30 30 Imm 25 30 30 30 30 0
24 Devil Captain Devil C 70 700 45 5600 0 1 N Short Aggress 2 300 40 0 DrainSP Phys 2D6+20 Fire 0 0 0 0 20 "Incinerate,M,12" 15 "Meteor Shower,M,12" Imm 40 40 40 Imm 25 40 40 40 40 0

This is taken from MM7's Monsters.txt. The first "Imm" means immunity to fire. The second "Imm" is immunity to mind. So there you have it. All Kreegans are completely immune to fire.

Ice Demons are summoned by devils, they don't live there, thus are not relevant.

That is not good enough evidence. If there is a simpler explanation that makes sense, then it's accepted unless proven otherwise. I don't see any proof that your conjecture there is anything close to canon.

They have spacefaring technology, and we see that they have the "flushing" technology, plus special alloys. But they don't have blasters. Plus they have sheer numbers. And magic is a good countermeasure against their equipment.

No, they did not "decided otherwise for quite sensible reasons". They decided that because they got death threats!

Gauldoth is a magic user. While Kreegans should also be capable of using magic, they're not so involved in it since they have the technology. Gauldoth teleported there by finding a one-of-a-kind artifact and performing a one-of-a-kind ritual in a one-of-a-kind place using magic. Kreegans, however, would just fly there instead! Or possibly use the Web, if they have the technology for that.

Like I've said, there's no proof that it's the whole world, or that the Kreegans are not living underground or even in the lava, since they're completely immune to fire.

No, Kreegans don't use magic as extensively as wizards. And, more importantly, why would they want to break the sword anyway? Besides, they don't have Gauldoth's "nature" side for seeing the lines.

Inferno cities ARE hives of high-tech aliens with queens and all that stuff. It's just hidden.

Yes it is the final objective, because it makes sense. Destroying everything does not.

EDIT: also, interestingly:

25 DemonFlyA Devil Captain 30 180 25 " 1,200 " 0 0 Y Long Aggress 4 250 60 0 Disease2 Phys 2D8+10 0 20 Fire 3D8 Fire 20 "Fireball,N,6" Imm 30 30 30 50 30 0
26 DemonFlyB Devil Master 50 400 35 " 3,000 " 0 0 Y Long Aggress 4 300 50 0 Disease3 Phys 2D8+15 0 20 Fire 4D8 Fire 20 "Meteor Shower,M,10" Imm 40 40 40 50 40 0
27 DemonFlyC Devil King 70 700 45 " 5,600 " 0 0 Y Med Suicidal 4 350 40 0 DrainSP Phys 2D8+20 0 20 Fire 5D8 Fire 20 "Incinerate,M,14" Imm 50 50 50 50 Imm 0
28 DemonA Devil Spawn 20 100 20 600 0 0 N Med Aggress 4 200 70 0 Disease2 Phys 2D6+8 0 20 Fire 3D6 Fire 20 "Fire Bolt,N,4" Imm 20 20 20 50 20 0
29 DemonB Devil Worker 40 280 30 " 2,000 " 0 0 N Med Aggress 4 250 60 0 Disease3 Phys 2D6+14 0 20 Fire 4D6 Fire 20 "Fire Bolt,N,8" Imm 30 30 30 50 30 0
30 DemonC Devil Warrior 60 540 40 " 4,200 " 0 0 N Short Suicidal 4 300 50 0 DrainSP Phys 2D6+20 0 20 Fire 5D6 Fire 20 "Fireball,N,12" Imm 50 50 50 50 Imm 0

This is from MM6. They are all immune to fire, but it seems that the top-tier Kreegans have something against magic - they are immune to it and drain SP...