What happened after the Kreegan Invasion?

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
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Corlagon
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Unread postby Corlagon » 19 Sep 2010, 17:06

What Avonu said.
Avonu wrote:Nice that you want to fix what is wrong with MMIX Roland's letter but you are incorrect. In MM8 Roland said he didn't see Nicolai from a long time and the last time when he saw him, Nicolai was a boy and now he is a man. If he would returned in 1168 A.S. Nicolai should be about 13-14 years old - and I don't think you could call him a boy.
Indeed, but I didn't make this up myself, it's official:
Gaidal Cain wrote:I'm a bit rusty on this, but has any of the demons in Axeoth ever been called Kreegan? We know for a fact that not all Inferno troops are Kreegan, as there were plenty of Gogs runnig around in Ironsand desert.
Gauldoth's campaign repeatedly refers to the non-undead Necropolis troops as the "Kreegan devils":
The Points of Power wrote:Months of tension between the Kreegans and the undead culminated last night in a riot that destroyed half of Nekorrum. My Master was still too weak to deal with the rebellious demons and devils, and perhaps that was the reason for the uprising. I think they sensed his weakness, and if those creatures respect anything, it is strength. This clash was bound to happen.
So the answer is "yes", there are Kreegans in Heroes IV.
Last edited by Corlagon on 19 Sep 2010, 21:10, edited 5 times in total.

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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 19 Sep 2010, 17:07

Thanks Avonu, for those foolproof arguments. ;)

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 19 Sep 2010, 21:20

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote: But the high-tech 'alien' Kreegans I agree are indeed extinct, which gave the inhabitants of Colony (is that what the Heroes III world is called?) a fighting chance.
It's called Enroth, just like the first continent. Colony is just for clarity (it's a colony of the Ancients).
This is a contradiction... The reunion (Familiy Reunion in MM7) shows Catherine, Roland and Archibald, not Catherine, Roland and Nicolai. So I believe that it's a typo on their end, and was supposed to say "He then rejoined his wife and brother for a brief reunion."

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Unread postby Corlagon » 19 Sep 2010, 22:02

It says what it says and we've gotta work with it.

There's two or three years between MM7's conclusion and AB's intro, which means there's room for a reunion with Nicolai. I don't think the possibility of such an event was directly contradicted in AB or MM8 (although I don't have access to those texts right now, so I could be mistaken). We don't know what age you have to be to be considered "a man" in Enroth - that's subjective. 16 would seem like a reasonable coming-of-age year, so Avonu's objection sort of falls flat.

And it does help explain the weirdness in that letter he has in MM9.

EDIT: Get a load of this:
Catherine's Charge wrote:In the long months since you left Enroth, your days have been filled with strife, terror, grief, and triumph, yet you have never lost sight of what is important to you, your son Nicolai. Your thoughts drift now to him, as you worry for him, for he is alone in Enroth and has been ever since you were summoned home to Erathia and Roland was taken captive on the Night of Shooting Stars. Only the knowledge that Nicolai has the aid of Wilbur Humphrey, Roland's appointed Regent, consoles your aching heart. You miss your son terribly and desire greatly to return home. Perhaps when this war is over and peace finally settles on the land of your birth, you can return home to your son, even if for only a little while.
So there you have it. MM9 letter-weirdness explained. Their reunion is just an unseen event.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 19 Sep 2010, 22:16

Nelgirith wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Roland was killed by the Kreegans already.

Hence why it says KING Nicolai and not PRINCE Nicolai.
Please, stop making up your version of the story. Nicolai was left in charge of Enroth (thus made King) when Roland and Catherine left for Jadame. Roland was alive in MM8.
It says King, not Prince-Regent, he is placed in charge. As the letter says, if anything should happen to me then you will become King. He is not made King, hence something evidently did happen to Roland.

Either Roland *is* dead then, or Nicolai and the rest of Enroth believed he is dead and Roland never returned to Enroth before the reckoning when he died.
Nelgirith wrote:
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The Kreegans obviously did survive, or else Nicolai couldn't have been fighting them before the destruction of Castle Ironfist could he? That even if the event he is reffering to is the Reckoning.
What part of "it was the Reckoning" did you not understand ?

The Kreegans were totally destroyed when MM8 happened since Escaton wanted to stop the destruction. His orders were to destroy any world that couldn't get rid of the Kreegans. He already activated the destruction of this world (causing the apparition of the Confluxes) when the Kreegans got eradicated. As he wasn't allowed to stop the process, he helped the heroes by telling them how to save their world. If any Kreegan had survived, Escaton wouldn't have intervened and would just have let the world explode.

The Reckoning just got everyone by surprise since it wasn't expected. Nicolai doesn't know what exactly happened, he only supposes demons attacked the capital city - which wasn't the case.
No, the Kreegans are in Enroth (demolishing your claim they were destroyed) as is proven by the letter. They evidently survived.

It could be Escaton is not concerned about the primitive 'demon-kreegans' they became, only about the advanced 'alien-kreegans' that they were originally. He simply doesn't consider those kreegans sufficiently advanced (which they aren't) for the local inhabitants not to take care of.

His definition of Kreegan might be more precise than that even of the Kreegans themselves (or even anyone else). The bulk of the Kreegans had changed so much already (towards a more fantasy demon form) that Escaton no longer recognized them as the Kreegans he was supposed to destroy the world in order to stop.
Secret_Holder wrote: Firstly, why would the Kreegans rather "throw" him into Axeoth than kill him outright.
Secondly, yes he could have escaped to Axeoth if he was unconscious. The HoMMIV intro shows Angels helping people to the portals. He wa almost certainly saved by angels.

Lastly, the earthquake wasn't a spell, it was the end of the world, caused by the Sword of Frost and Armageddon's Blade clashing.
Perhaps because the Ironfist dynasty is special and linked to the Kreegans destiny in some key way. These are devils, consequently their plans are likely a lot more subtle than merely burn and kill everything they can immediately catch.

The reason it isn't the end of the world is simply that nobody else is with him. Had he used the normal portals, presumably he would have a small army of fellow Enrothians with him, who had used the same portal.

Where are the other refugees from Enroth in Might and Magic IX? Other than the imps in Anshram Keep perhaps, there are none and no mention of them that I have encountered.
Avonu wrote: This letter is opposite to all what we known from MM6-8 and H3. I suggest you to not take it as 100% true.
I am not taking it as 100% true. I am merely not dismissing it.

Avonu wrote: Roland and Catherine were off on Enroth for about 10 years. When Catherine left Castle Ironfist, Nicolai was 10 years old, now he is in his twenties. He never saw his parents again - they were lost after they left Jadame.
See below why.
So even if they are not dead, Enroth believes that are dead and have crowned Nicolai King. Makes sense.
Avonu wrote: Nicolas was named king because Roland was missing in 1162 A.S. and pressumed dead (but in fact he was captive by Kreegans on Antagarich).
Is that like Heroes III Restoration of Erathia time, Succession Wars time or pre-reckoning time. The chronology of events is confusing me here.

I know that he was unable to lead the initial fleet into Erathia. Is this what you are talking about in regard to being held captive?
Avonu wrote: As i said, read careful. He spoke only about talking with his general about Kreegan problem. Not about war with Kreegans or they assault on castle.
Besides if you look on letter from Roland, you can guess (right or wrong - I don't know) that this Devil problem is Armageddon's Blade.
That is we can assume the last letter than Roland sent to Nicolai before his death/dissaperance. That is why it is being kept.

There must be with the Kreegans going on Enroth before the Reckoning, otherwise he would not assume that the Kreegans took the capital.
Avonu wrote: Nope. It is what he thinks but if you played HIV you should know what really happened - earthquakes and portal to another realm - it's description of HIV intro (Reckoning).
No, it is before the reckoning, otherwise there would be a small army of other refugees from the capital as well with him. Or from various other places, or however this worked. He would consequently know better as to what went on as a result.

It cannot be the reckoning yet because there is only 1 man in Axeoth, nobody even to explain what happened.

Avonu wrote: Nice that you want to fix what is wrong with MMIX Roland's letter but you are incorrect. In MM8 Roland said he didn't see Nicolai from a long time and the last time when he saw him, Nicolai was a boy and now he is a man. If he would returned in 1168 A.S. Nicolai should be about 13-14 years old - and I don't think you could call him a boy.
Catherine and Roland didn't go back to Enroth and next go to Antagarich once again to fight Lucifer - they were in Erathia all time between H3:RoE/MM7 and end of Armageddon's Blade campaign. After they defeated Kreegans and left succession over Gryphonheart throne in hands of Morgan Kendal, they sailed back to Enroth and visited Jadame by the way.
There is no *they* Catherine went to Erathia ALONE, Roland was captured by the Kreegans and was rendered unable to lead the fleet as a result. Roland never appeared in Erathia during the course of the Restoration of Erathia campaign (I have completed the whole thing). Catherine believes at one point that he held prisoner there and finds out that he isn't at all after launching an assault on the presumed location.

He then escapes his actual prison location and returns to Enroth, but without Queen Catherine who remains in Erathia.

The letter is dated as when Lucifer Kreegan forges the Armageddon's blade, which means it is in the Armageddon's blade campaign time. He departs to Erathia, after which something must have happened that killed him or led to him being believed dead by the people of Enroth, hence Nicolai becoming king.

Finally, when Nicolai is King (Roland and presumably Catherine are out of the way), the Kreegans invade Enroth. Otherwise he would not have believed (right or wrongly) that the Kreegans took the capital city.

Which logically means that the Kreegans were not destroyed.

But nothing technically prevents Catherine and a living Roland from re-uniting as long as they do so in such a way that the latter is believed dead by the people of Enroth and Nicolai.

Or as Corlagon put it earlier.
They were sailing back to Enroth, but were attacked by Regnan pirates and were forced to dock in Ravenshore. After that they stayed for a while to help with the Escaton crisis.
So they were believed 'lost at sea'. The reckoning must happened however before they were able to return to Enroth.
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Unread postby Corlagon » 19 Sep 2010, 22:35

@Slayer of Cliffracers: You are still quite confused/mistaken on many counts, to say the least. Especially this prevailing (yet totally unsubstantiated) belief that there are two completely different types of Kreegan. You're reading way, way too deeply into minor little details from the parts of the saga you have played, while ignoring entire swathes of essential lore from those you haven't.

You said you have MM6 and MM8 installed already. Do you not trust us when we say that if you play through them, the majority of the quandaries you're raising will be answered? Please do so, the games are a lot of fun and it'll mean less typing and quote-excavating for me. We don't have any agenda here, we've played all the games and are simply trying to help you understand, not vice versa.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 20 Sep 2010, 05:18

Corlagon wrote: EDIT: Get a load of this:
Catherine's Charge wrote:In the long months since you left Enroth, your days have been filled with strife, terror, grief, and triumph, yet you have never lost sight of what is important to you, your son Nicolai. Your thoughts drift now to him, as you worry for him, for he is alone in Enroth and has been ever since you were summoned home to Erathia and Roland was taken captive on the Night of Shooting Stars. Only the knowledge that Nicolai has the aid of Wilbur Humphrey, Roland's appointed Regent, consoles your aching heart. You miss your son terribly and desire greatly to return home. Perhaps when this war is over and peace finally settles on the land of your birth, you can return home to your son, even if for only a little while.
So there you have it. MM9 letter-weirdness explained. Their reunion is just an unseen event.
I don't see how. It's Catherine sailing from Enroth to Erathia for the first time from what I can see.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The reason it isn't the end of the world is simply that nobody else is with him. Had he used the normal portals, presumably he would have a small army of fellow Enrothians with him, who had used the same portal.
The portals there were to the Elemental Planes. They were quite unstable as it is, there weren't that many of them, survival on the planes themselves isn't that easy, and when they got out to Axeoth they were all scattered across the globe. So the Enrothians are probably on another continent altogether.

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Unread postby Nelgirith » 20 Sep 2010, 07:21

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It could be Escaton is not concerned about the primitive 'demon-kreegans' they became, only about the advanced 'alien-kreegans' that they were originally. He simply doesn't consider those kreegans sufficiently advanced (which they aren't) for the local inhabitants not to take care of.

His definition of Kreegan might be more precise than that even of the Kreegans themselves (or even anyone else). The bulk of the Kreegans had changed so much already (towards a more fantasy demon form) that Escaton no longer recognized them as the Kreegans he was supposed to destroy the world in order to stop.
I got it ... you're trolling. It's not possible to be THAT stubborn.

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Unread postby Avonu » 20 Sep 2010, 07:40

Corlagon wrote:There's two or three years between MM7's conclusion and AB's intro, which means there's room for a reunion with Nicolai. I don't think the possibility of such an event was directly contradicted in AB or MM8 (although I don't have access to those texts right now, so I could be mistaken). We don't know what age you have to be to be considered "a man" in Enroth - that's subjective. 16 would seem like a reasonable coming-of-age year, so Avonu's objection sort of falls flat.

And it does help explain the weirdness in that letter he has in MM9.

EDIT: Get a load of this:
Catherine's Charge wrote:In the long months since you left Enroth, your days have been filled with strife, terror, grief, and triumph, yet you have never lost sight of what is important to you, your son Nicolai. Your thoughts drift now to him, as you worry for him, for he is alone in Enroth and has been ever since you were summoned home to Erathia and Roland was taken captive on the Night of Shooting Stars. Only the knowledge that Nicolai has the aid of Wilbur Humphrey, Roland's appointed Regent, consoles your aching heart. You miss your son terribly and desire greatly to return home. Perhaps when this war is over and peace finally settles on the land of your birth, you can return home to your son, even if for only a little while.
So there you have it. MM9 letter-weirdness explained. Their reunion is just an unseen event.
If we assume that Roland was in Enroth between MM7 and AB, then he met Nicolai - 15 years old and this age is not "a boy" anymore but rather "a man" (14 years old was enough in some tribes to be man). :P

Catherine sailed to Antagarich at beginning of in 1165 A.S. RoE finished in 5th August 1165 A.S. (according to Archibald diary). Roland is still captured in Eeofol. MM7 started in 1168 A.S. and Cathrine is still in Erathia. Roland was freed from his prison between 1168 and 1169 A.S. He was imprisoned 6 or7 years, so 1162 (yearofhis capture) +6/7 years = 1168-69 A.S. To the end of MM7 there is no evidence that Catherine and Roland left Erathia. Now AB start right after MM7 - see Letter from Lucifer Kreegan. War with Kreegan begin with death of Xenofex (MM7) and in H3:AB we see not beginning of this conflict but some time after Kreegan passed borders of Erathia.
Following the initial invasion of Eeofol, you ran into the elite force of Kreegans known as the Fist of Unholy Might. These battle-hardened regiments pushed you back clear across the border and now threaten to push deeper into Erathia. It is here, in the Contested Lands that lie between Erathia and Eeofol, where you plan to make your stand. Digging in until reinforcements can arrive is your plan and quite possibly Erathia's only hope.
I really don'tsee any free time for Cathrine and Roland to visit Enroth in meantime. First Restoration of Erathia war, next for Blood and Honor events when Roland was freed and just after that Armageddon's Blade war. After end of this campaign Ironfists have time for something else then war and politics in Erathia.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No, the Kreegans are in Enroth (demolishing your claim they were destroyed) as is proven by the letter. They evidently survived.
It could be Escaton is not concerned about the primitive 'demon-kreegans' they became, only about the advanced 'alien-kreegans' that they were originally. He simply doesn't consider those kreegans sufficiently advanced (which they aren't) for the local inhabitants not to take care of.

His definition of Kreegan might be more precise than that even of the Kreegans themselves (or even anyone else). The bulk of the Kreegans had changed so much already (towards a more fantasy demon form) that Escaton no longer recognized them as the Kreegans he was supposed to destroy the world in order to stop.
Play MM6 and MM8 first.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Where are the other refugees from Enroth in Might and Magic IX? Other than the imps in Anshram Keep perhaps, there are none and no mention of them that I have encountered.
Gogs and efreets never were Kreegans - they live in Elemental Plane of Fire and were allied with the Kreegan in H3.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Is that like Heroes III Restoration of Erathia time, Succession Wars time or pre-reckoning time. The chronology of events is confusing me here.

I know that he was unable to lead the initial fleet into Erathia. Is this what you are talking about in regard to being held captive?
Play MM6.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:That is we can assume the last letter than Roland sent to Nicolai before his death/dissaperance. That is why it is being kept.

There must be with the Kreegans going on Enroth before the Reckoning, otherwise he would not assume that the Kreegans took the capital.
Play MM6.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:No, it is before the reckoning, otherwise there would be a small army of other refugees from the capital as well with him. Or from various other places, or however this worked. He would consequently know better as to what went on as a result.
It is, even one NPC in Thronheim said about this.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:It cannot be the reckoning yet because there is only 1 man in Axeoth, nobody even to explain what happened.
No, Rysh is on the other site of Axeoth then continent from HIV where bulk of refugee from Enroth arrived. And in MMIX we don't even explore full Rysh but only Chedian lands.

Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:There is no *they* Catherine went to Erathia ALONE, Roland was captured by the Kreegans and was rendered unable to lead the fleet as a result. Roland never appeared in Erathia during the course of the Restoration of Erathia campaign (I have completed the whole thing). Catherine believes at one point that he held prisoner there and finds out that he isn't at all after launching an assault on the presumed location.
Play MM7 to the end (family reunion cut-scene) and MM8.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:The letter is dated as when Lucifer Kreegan forges the Armageddon's blade, which means it is in the Armageddon's blade campaign time. He departs to Erathia, after which something must have happened that killed him or led to him being believed dead by the people of Enroth, hence Nicolai becoming king.
Play MM8.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Finally, when Nicolai is King (Roland and presumably Catherine are out of the way), the Kreegans invade Enroth. Otherwise he would not have believed (right or wrongly) that the Kreegans took the capital city.
Where he said that the Kreegan took capital city or even attacked any part of Enroth after Mandate of Heaven? Where it is?
He only THINKS that Kreegans are responsible for his situation. But they are not. Gelu and Kilgor are who should he blamed for what happened. :P
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Which logically means that the Kreegans were not destroyed.
Play MM8.

Play MM6-8 FIRST and FINISH them, next you can go back them and speak about the Kreegan, the Ironfists and the Reckoning.
And replay AB too.
EOT

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 20 Sep 2010, 11:59

Anyway, how do you explain Kreegans on Axeoth again? They can't have been there earlier since they would have turned the world into a wasteland, and if we trust Escaton, they can't have gone through the portals. I'd guess that the most possible scenario in that case would be that they discovered Axeoth shortly after the Reckoning, and launched an asteroid-ship there...

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Unread postby Tress » 20 Sep 2010, 12:08

Somehow I had impression that Axeoth Kreegans were same those of homm3, but only in vastly reduced numbers and thus they aren't full faction anymore.
As for Estacon, although he said they were purged I guess, that can be interpreted as that their numbers and capabilities to reproduce(eofol bases destroyed, queen killed )are reduced to a point they aren't considered threat.
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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 20 Sep 2010, 12:10

Corlagon wrote:@Slayer of Cliffracers: You are still quite confused/mistaken on many counts, to say the least. Especially this prevailing (yet totally unsubstantiated) belief that there are two completely different types of Kreegan. You're reading way, way too deeply into minor little details from the parts of the saga you have played, while ignoring entire swathes of essential lore from those you haven't.

You said you have MM6 and MM8 installed already. Do you not trust us when we say that if you play through them, the majority of the quandaries you're raising will be answered? Please do so, the games are a lot of fun and it'll mean less typing and quote-excavating for me. We don't have any agenda here, we've played all the games and are simply trying to help you understand, not vice versa.
Given that the majority of the problems are caused by playing Might and Magic games and the fact that other bits of lore conflicts with what is said in them, I doubt that the problems are entirely caused by lack of playing.
GreatEmerald wrote: The portals there were to the Elemental Planes. They were quite unstable as it is, there weren't that many of them, survival on the planes themselves isn't that easy, and when they got out to Axeoth they were all scattered across the globe. So the Enrothians are probably on another continent altogether.
The portals were to Axeoth not to the elemental planes surely? I've never heard of any intermediate stage between
Nelgrith wrote: I got it ... you're trolling. It's not possible to be THAT stubborn.
It is clear that the Kreegans did survive from Heroes IV and Might and Magic IX. It is apparently the case that the Kreegans didn't Might and Magic VIII.

I wouldn't call trying to resolve the contradiction 'trolling'.

Avonu wrote: Gogs and efreets never were Kreegans - they live in Elemental Plane of Fire and were allied with the Kreegan in H3.
Efreets evidently come from the elemental plane of fire. But Gogs, well they aren't immune to fire are they?

All the demons are summoned from volcanoes in Hereos III.
Avonu wrote: No, Rysh is on the other site of Axeoth then continent from HIV where bulk of refugee from Enroth arrived. And in MMIX we don't even explore full Rysh but only Chedian lands.
If the individuals were scattered at random throughout Axeoth as individuals even if they departed as groups, then how was in any way possible for them to continue to maintain any family ties after the reckoning?

Avonu wrote: Where he said that the Kreegan took capital city or even attacked any part of Enroth after Mandate of Heaven? Where it is?
He only THINKS that Kreegans are responsible for his situation. But they are not. Gelu and Kilgor are who should he blamed for what happened. :P
That he is discussing the Kreegan problem with his general? That he automatically assumes that the Kreegans are attacking the capital city?

He doesn't believe for instance that the Kreegans have ended the world, he believes that the Kreegans have taken the capital. If there are no Kreegans in Enroth, this would not be his assumption.

This is post-Armageddon's blade, so the Kreegan problem in Erathia is already dealt with. It cannot be in Erathia that the Kreegan problem is.

He (and everyone in Enroth) believe his parents are dead, hence why Nicolai is King. The letter that is with him is an old letter from his father, who is already dead as far as he is concerned.

Thus the answer to the OP question is that the Kreegans invaded Enroth just prior to the reckoning after the Kreegan problem in Erathia was sorted out.
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Unread postby Tress » 20 Sep 2010, 12:13

It is clear that the Kreegans did survive from Heroes IV and Might and Magic IX. It is apparently the case that the Kreegans didn't Might and Magic VIII.
Well MM9 references cant really be taken as seriously as anything written in mm8 or homm 4 considering that it hardly had plot it was intended to have.

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Unread postby ThunderTitan » 20 Sep 2010, 12:16

GreatEmerald wrote:Anyway, how do you explain Kreegans on Axeoth again? They can't have been there earlier since they would have turned the world into a wasteland, and if we trust Escaton, they can't have gone through the portals. I'd guess that the most possible scenario in that case would be that they discovered Axeoth shortly after the Reckoning, and launched an asteroid-ship there...
Wasn't it in Gauldoth's campaign that he find some demons on another plane or something?! When he saves his master or some such.


BTW, which are the Kreegans in the Inferno line up, just the Devils, right?!
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Unread postby Tress » 20 Sep 2010, 12:31

BTW, which are the Kreegans in the Inferno line up, just the Devils, right?!
Several heroes are deffinately Kreegans like Grok, who are refereed to as remnants of ruined Kreegan empire, guess same goes for level 4 devils.
I guess imps are lesser versions of kreegans, Sort of longshot, but in a way their mana stealing ability may be refereed in mm7 devil mana drain attacks.

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Unread postby Slayer of Cliffracers » 20 Sep 2010, 12:59

tress wrote:
It is clear that the Kreegans did survive from Heroes IV and Might and Magic IX. It is apparently the case that the Kreegans didn't Might and Magic VIII.
Well MM9 references cant really be taken as seriously as anything written in mm8 or homm 4 considering that it hardly had plot it was intended to have.
Well the Kreegans are definitely alive and kicking in Heroes IV.

Thunder Titan wrote: Wasn't it in Gauldoth's campaign that he find some demons on another plane or something?! When he saves his master or some such.


BTW, which are the Kreegans in the Inferno line up, just the Devils, right?!
Yep, funnily enough I am set to play said game. I should be playing it rather than spending precious time writing stuff here. :) :) :)

All the creatures save the Efreet (and apparently gogs but I am skeptical) in the Inferno line up are Kreegans. But they aren't the original hive-based Kreegan forms that arrived on Enroth to start off with. None of those original Kreegans apparently survived by the end of Might and Magic XIII, hence the Kreegans were in a sense destroyed.

Though the derivative devil creatures continued to exist, so the Kreegans both survived and were destroyed at the same time. :creative: :creative:
Working on tracking the locations of Heroes IV battles. Stage 6 of campaign map finished, all initial Heroes IV campaigns mapped.

http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/ ... hp?t=11973

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Bandobras Took
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Unread postby Bandobras Took » 20 Sep 2010, 13:50

Just a note on Nicolai in MMIX:

He's pretty much insane. Nothing he says can be taken at face value. He's confusing elements of his childhood (obsession with the circus) with the current situation.
Far too many people speak their minds without first verifying the quality of their source material.

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Zenofex
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Unread postby Zenofex » 20 Sep 2010, 14:19

The Kreegans in HoMM IV did not arrive from Enroth/Antagarich and were not exactly a sub-faction. Gauldoth took them from some unknown world, possibly a planet who-knows-how-many-star-systems-away and actually limited number of them followed him back through the portal. So they were not enough to form a significant force themselves, but at the same time they were not subordinated to the undead, but more like temporary allies.
The certain HoMM III Kreegans are Imps, Demons, Pit Fiends and Devils. I'm not sure that the Gogs aren't native to Antagarich, the Efreeti are definitely not Kreegans and the Cerberi seem to be "borrowed" from the local demons (the Conquest of the Underworld ones). The HoMM IV ones are Imps, Devils and maybe Venom Spawns (they look like Colony Zod, that's for sure).

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Secret_Holder
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Unread postby Secret_Holder » 20 Sep 2010, 16:22

Bandobras Took wrote:Just a note on Nicolai in MMIX:

He's pretty much insane. Nothing he says can be taken at face value. He's confusing elements of his childhood (obsession with the circus) with the current situation.
Yes, I agree with this. He definetely cuckoo.

But on the Kreegans. They're describes as "devil-like" creatures. So not a all devils a Kreegans.

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Unread postby Corlagon » 20 Sep 2010, 16:24

GreatEmerald wrote:I don't see how. It's Catherine sailing from Enroth to Erathia for the first time from what I can see.
Long months =/= long years
Avonu wrote:If we assume that Roland was in Enroth between MM7 and AB, then he met Nicolai - 15 years old and this age is not "a boy" anymore but rather "a man" (14 years old was enough in some tribes to be man).
That's not really proof - like I said we don't know what age one is considered "a boy" or "a man" in Enroth.
Avonu wrote:Now AB start right after MM7 - see Letter from Lucifer Kreegan. War with Kreegan begin with death of Xenofex (MM7) and in H3:AB we see not beginning of this conflict but some time after Kreegan passed borders of Erathia.
Actually Xeron states that he has "pursued these heroes for months" and his first mission runs concurrently with Gelu's and Catherine's. So this letter was definitely written at least a few months before Erathia invaded Eeofol, and doesn't conclusively prove when the war began.
Avonu wrote:I really don'tsee any free time for Cathrine and Roland to visit Enroth in meantime. First Restoration of Erathia war, next for Blood and Honor events when Roland was freed and just after that Armageddon's Blade war. After end of this campaign Ironfists have time for something else then war and politics in Erathia.
Yes, but there you go, I gave you two pieces of text which do state that they did return to Enroth briefly, and do help clear up that supposed screwup in MM9's letter. Take it or leave it.
GreatEmerald wrote:Anyway, how do you explain Kreegans on Axeoth again? They can't have been there earlier since they would have turned the world into a wasteland, and if we trust Escaton, they can't have gone through the portals. I'd guess that the most possible scenario in that case would be that they discovered Axeoth shortly after the Reckoning, and launched an asteroid-ship there...
No. The remaining few Kreegans who survived H3 fled Enroth to the Fiery Realm after Armageddon's Blade, then when Gauldoth invaded the Fiery Realm he brought them back with him to Axeoth. So it's true to say that they were exterminated from Enroth, and yet a number of them did survive. They didn't get there through the Reckoning portals.
Slayer of Cliffracers wrote:Given that the majority of the problems are caused by playing Might and Magic games and the fact that other bits of lore conflicts with what is said in them, I doubt that the problems are entirely caused by lack of playing.
I don't mean to be rude but, as Nelgrith says, you appear to be acting very stubbornly about this. You are inventing lore conflicts that don't exist and never have existed, not because there are holes in the continuity, but because YOU haven't played the games and there are holes in YOUR understanding of it.
I remember facepalming my way through that four-page-long debate you had on the topic "are there natives in Axeoth" with Marzhin and Kareeah in that old map thread, which only kicked off because you hadn't played MM9, refused to accept it as canon and spread your misconceptions everywhere. Now you've played MM9 and you know there are indeed natives. Maybe we can speed up the process this time by imploring you: go and play the games before commenting. Please. I don't know what else I can say to you.


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