[STORYLINE] Ancestors, Sparkling Bridge and the God of Death

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[STORYLINE] Ancestors, Sparkling Bridge and the God of Death

Postby XEL II » Mar 15 2010, 15:15

There are several unexplained aspects in the storyline of HoMM IV and Heroes Chronicles. First of all, I wish to point out that LotA is not considered canon in this particular discussion.

1. The Ancestors. What are they? Krewlodian Barabarians worship them as gods. There are three known Ancestors who are connected to the Barabrians worshipping them. They appear to wield formidable powers. Could they be something akin to the Wielders from the planet of Geary Gravel's novels? Or maybe they are projections from the consciousness of Tarnum, who has the link to the Wire (like the Wielders)?

2. Sparkling Bridge. It's described as the portal to any world i nthe universe. It is located in the mountains across the desert north to the World Tree. Ring of Wayfarer is required to control it. It could be the Web Gate from M&M VII, but the Gate was broken and requires a Control Cube to pass through them? The Bridge is guarded by the Elementals, so it could be the creation of the Ancients, since they have displayed use of the Elementals Planes (in fact, the Elemental Lords originated on CRON, one of their seedships and the Planes were created by King Kalohn) in some of their experiments. Perhaps, the Sparkling Bridge was created from the energy of the Fount of Wizardy from PoL?

3. "God Death". He was described as an inhumanly tall humanoid with gray skin. He dwells in some place Gauldoth dubbed "the Plane of Death", which is dark, dead and represent pure destruction. I don't think he is Necros from Crusaders of Might and Magic. What was this "god of death"? He visisted Enroth after it was ravaged by the Reckoning and wished to destroy all life on Axeoth, using the Unholy Breath, which was to be created by merging the Deadwood Staff with the skull of the creature from the Plane of Death at the time when the stars are aligned.

4. Underworld. Now that's the moments confusing part in the Heroes Chronicles storyline. Judging from CotU, the entrance to the Underworld is the Cerberus Gate located somewhere in Erathia. Underworld looks like some sort of vast undeground caverns and tunnels. It is inhabited by the underground monsters, including "demons, and is rule by Deezelisk, the Duke of the Bottom. We got virtually no explanation of what this Underworld is and who are those Demons it's populated by. One of the possibilities is that the Underworld is the vast system of caverns and tunnels beneath Erathia and the Demons are Enrothian monsters (just like, for example Wyverns) among the large variety of creatures Enroth was seeded with by VARN MCMIV during the Crossing. Demons are also present in M&M I-V and are seemingly non-Kreegan (who weren't even invented whem these games came out). On CRON, they were among many creatures guarding the Square Lake, entrance to CRON's control room. This is where Demons from M&M I-III are from. On XEEN Demons were guarding the lowest level of the Dungeon of Death, which appears to be some sort of control chamber over the Elemental Corners of the Darkside. So, the Demons from M&M I-V are some kind of guarding monsters. Are the Underworld Demons of the same type? My guess is that during the decline of Enroth's technology and rebellion in the Control Center soon after the Silence, there was a minor interference in the Wire, which caused the Cerberus Gate to appear on Erathia. The Gate led to the semi-real space, formed by the myths and fears of the planet's inhabitants. This space was the Underworld. After Tarnum's conquest in CotU, the Cerberus Gate was closed.

5. Gavin Magnus's immortalit. Magnus was reffered to as "the immortal ruler of BRacada" in Solmyr's bio in RoE, but the hwole thing with him being the Immortal King was brought in by Masters of the Elements and HoMM IV? What is the source of his immortality? In MotE it was mentioned that Magnus became immortal after he was slain by one of Behemoths of Tarnum's army and his immortaluty was caused by some spell he created before.

What do you think?
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Postby Corlagon » Mar 16 2010, 16:49

My humble opinions:
Could they be something akin to the Wielders from the planet of Geary Gravel's novels?
I think not because the Wielders aren't ghostly and are never shown to have the power to float above lakes. :P It's not impossible though.
Perhaps, the Sparkling Bridge was created from the energy of the Fount of Wizardy from PoL?
Personally, I don't think PoL was set on Enroth, but perhaps Axeoth instead. This is purely because it introduces the name "Anduran", who is otherwise mentioned only in the Axeoth games.
I don't think he is Necros from Crusaders of Might and Magic.
I think he is. :tired:
But if you look up the deleted artifact flavour texts in H4 you'll come across mentions of another "God of Death" named Gurate. Maybe this is the character the storywriter had in mind.
What is the source of his immortality?
Absolutely no idea. Probably the biggest mystery there is.

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Postby XEL II » Mar 16 2010, 17:38

Could you quote this texts mentioning Gurate?

Wielders have the great power, second only (aside from Ancients and Creators, who have never appeared in the games) to the Guardians. So they may well have power to float above lakes and make themselves ghostly in appearance. I think the Ancestors are projections of Tarnum's consciousness, caused by his dormant link to the Wire Gavin Magnus also have similiar connection, which manifested as his immortality after he was slain.

PoL is most likely srt on another planet, possibly XEEN, considering that the most graphics, heroes and design elements in Heroes II were derived from there

Apparently, Underworld has the same origin I described in the opening post. Plane of Magic appears to be some sort of simulated space manifesting the elements of thought and magic, created by Conflux's (the union between all four Elemental Planes), through which Tarnum went after he used a Conflux to acces the Elemental Planes. What could be "the Plane of Death" and this Gurate entity? Another dimension? Or is Gurate a Creator or an Ancient?

6. What are the Gods of Arslegard. My guess is that they are six aspects of the Guardian of Axeoth. In Terran legends the Ancients were described as five Forces of Might, Order, Life,Death and Nature, called the Forces of Dome. Axeoth can have Guardian who used the similiar concept by representing himself with six aspects that of Might, Nature, Order, Chaos, Life and Deatg, They dwell in Guardian's out-of-phase residence and built ther city of Arslegard on the Astral Plane near it. Wyrdes and Oracle of Dawn are Fre's aspects.
Last edited by XEL II on Mar 16 2010, 17:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Avonu » Mar 16 2010, 17:46

XEL II wrote:Axeoth can have Guardian who used the similiar concept by representing himself with six aspects that of Might, Nature, Order, Chaos, Life and Deatg, They dwell in Guardian's out-of-phase residence and built ther city of Arslegard on the Astral Plane near it. Wyrdes and Oracle of Dawn are Fre's aspects.
Axeoth probably had a Guardian and MMIX hints it could be Verhoffin. Is it true or not no one knows.
Arsegardian gods are gods. That what we know about them. But they have someone above the - Wyrdes - these three women are controlling fate of all mortals and gods also IIRC MMIX lore. But:
The one thing that I pretty much knew for sure was the 3 Wyrdes were supposed to be ancients.
Personally I think that these gods are another spacefarer race who dwell on Axeoth and is guarding this world (like Ancestors on Enroth). And they are allies or servats of the Ancients. But these are only my thoughts, not based on any game lore.


And about rest of your questions - I must first check something and will post reply later.

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Postby Corlagon » Mar 16 2010, 17:56

Yeah, I don't think the Wielders can't do that, just that they don't in the books so a conscious connection isn't very evident.

You get the Gurate text when you pick up the Staff of Death:
You sneak into a shrine to the death god, Gurate, and steal the Staff of Death from its place on the altar. Can't let it fall into the wrong hands, now can you? Then you slip out with your prize, unnoticed, and wonder why everything couldn't be this easy.…
Isn't there an Ancient in Shifters? Also the Wyrdes were planned to be revealed as three of the Ancients in MM9 but this point could not be implemented in time. If it matters, they are named Igrid, Verdandi and Morgan.

I don't know about the Underworld or the Plane of Magic, canonically speaking. As far as the author was concerned they were probably just magical planes with no specific origin. Not everything in that universe was born from sci-fi. Very little, actually, I suspect.

I have my own theory on the Oracle of the Dawn but will save it for now.

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Postby XEL II » Mar 16 2010, 18:00

But the matter of gods in M&M universe is same as in the real world: it can't be said for sure wether there is God or gods. So the gods from M&M IX must have some explanation and are most likely connected to the Ancients, since Krohn narrates the intro, which mentiones Axeoth being one of the worlds seeded by the Ancients.

You think M&M IX gods and Ancestors are another spacefaring race? Possibly servants of the Ancients? Could you tel more about these thought of yours?

I think Verhoffin was Njam. The Guardian wouldn't cause Cataclysm.
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Postby Corlagon » Mar 16 2010, 18:05

I think Verhoffin was Njam. The Guardian wouldn't cause Cataclysm.
Wouldn't, or shouldn't? A Guardian wouldn't normally brutally conquer XEEN or fling VARNs into the sun either. :P

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Postby XEL II » Mar 16 2010, 18:15

If we ignore the fact that all the inhabitants of Terra and Enroth originated from ecological and social microcosms, created using the stars and implanted in these planets, CRON is a ship carrying vehicles with such microcosms, XEEN is one of the thousands of artificially-created planets, Geary Gravel book's world is ruled by godlike entities whose power stems from the planetary computer energy network, the Kreegan are incredibly technologically advanced race of planet-infesting aliens, the main characters of M&M I-V were extremely powerful cyborg mechanisms and the basis of the entire M&M series storyline are the Starseed Projects (such as the Great Experiment and XEEN) of a supercivilization, then yeah, very little is based on sci-fi in that universe :)
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Postby Corlagon » Mar 16 2010, 18:23

You misinterpreted my meaning. I'm pointing out that the Elemental Planes and the Ancients and Creators themselves weren't somehow created by sci-fi as was suggested in the past.

I can also say with absolute certainty that the Ancients aren't from Earth in case anyone still thinks so.

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Postby XEL II » Mar 16 2010, 18:27

Ancients can hardly originate from Earth. I think Earth is one of the worlds of the Great Experiment or Unification.
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Postby XEL II » Mar 16 2010, 18:34

The Elemental Lords originated from CRON (a ship carrying VARNs). In History of CRON from M&M II manual it is said that the water mixed with some ethereal substance from CRON, creating Water Elementals. Then, other Elements arose to fight the Water. Gralkor and his Earth Elementals conquered three other Elements and had them form the land of CRON. Later, other creatures arrived on CRON, the elemental Lords waged war upon them and were eventually impriosed by King Kalohn in the four corners of CRON, known as the Elemental Planes.
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Postby theLuckyDragon » Mar 16 2010, 22:20

What's this I hear about Tarnum and his consciousness being connected to some Wire? I've never heard about this side of Tarnum's identity.
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Postby XEL II » Mar 17 2010, 7:33

That's my theory I invented to explain the Ancestors.

Wire is akin to wireless planetary computer network, used as controlling tool and at times energy source. Ancient colonies and created worlds and the microcosms of VARNs have their own Wires.

Wire is used by the Guardians, the controlling units of the experiments on the worlds of Great Experimen (like Enroth and Terra) and Unification (like XEEN). Guardians are cyborg mechanisms with incredible powers, the most powerful characters in M&M series (aside from the Ancients and the Creators who weren't shown).
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby XEL II » Mar 17 2010, 7:34

Where is the information about Wyrdes being Ancients from?
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Postby Marzhin » Mar 17 2010, 9:51

XEL II wrote:Where is the information about Wyrdes being Ancients from?
Yeah, I must say I'm very curious about it as well :)

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Postby XEL II » Mar 17 2010, 11:52

What is the Dungeon of Death? It's lowest level is the highly technological palce, which has Lord Xeen making machines in it. There also fields of Fore, Water, Earth and Air, controlled by respective cores. There are Demons among its guardians, as well as lots of Lord Xeens created by the machine. The Dungeon is home of Sandro, who currently resides in Necropolis.
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Postby Corlagon » Mar 17 2010, 13:06

XEL II wrote:Where is the information about Wyrdes being Ancients from?
From the following by Tim Lang at Castle Gobs (when asked about the MM9 Gods):
Whether they were really gods or ancients was still up for debate. I never had to answer that question, so I never did. I did think about it from time to time, and came up with a few scenarios. But again, since I never actually had to answer the question, the possibility is still up for debate.

The one thing that I pretty much knew for sure was the 3 Wyrdes were supposed to be ancients. We didn't really get into them in the game as much as I wanted...only one of them actually made it into the game (and was secretly Njam in disguise...)
It's in the developer forum only, but Arturchix and Ribannah can also confirm it's there.

Oh, and regarding the Earth thing... the reason it's confirmed is that The Shadowsmith is tied in with the War of the Fading Worlds.
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Postby Marzhin » Mar 17 2010, 13:18

Corlagon wrote:From the following by Tim Lang at Castle Gobs (when asked about the MM9 Gods):
Whether they were really gods or ancients was still up for debate. I never had to answer that question, so I never did. I did think about it from time to time, and came up with a few scenarios. But again, since I never actually had to answer the question, the possibility is still up for debate.

The one thing that I pretty much knew for sure was the 3 Wyrdes were supposed to be ancients. We didn't really get into them in the game as much as I wanted...only one of them actually made it into the game (and was secretly Njam in disguise...)
It's in the developer forum only, but Arturchix and Ribannah can also confirm it's there.
Now that I think about it, I believe you did already send me this piece of info in the past :)

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Postby XEL II » Mar 17 2010, 13:29

So, the Wyrdes are not necessarily Ancients.
Make you strong places to dwell and practice the evil of your arts. Build great monuments to stand through the ages and remind your followers of the task with which you have been charged. Use these halls of iniquity to perpetrate your schemes against the infestation that has taken the fields and lakes of this land from you, their rightful masters. Never forget the hatred that must finally overcome and consume mankind. Dwell in your dungeons and brood. - Sheltem the Dark

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Postby Corlagon » Mar 17 2010, 13:37

They are, obviously, NWC just wasn't given the chance to reveal this in the games.


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