3d models wanted for testing MM6 outdoor map editor

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vladimir-maestro
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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 09 Mar 2010, 17:29

will wait for next step in development =)

about 64 faces...
does it mean that we can do complicated models with more than 200-300 faces? or there still will be a limit of models per 1 map?
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Unread postby mkienenb » 09 Mar 2010, 17:49

vladimir-maestro wrote:will wait for next step in development =)

about 64 faces...
does it mean that we can do complicated models with more than 200-300 faces? or there still will be a limit of models per 1 map?
The original game has huge models broken up into smaller ones.
There's a tower near the hive in the middle of Outa1 that's made up of at least four models (64 + 64 + 64 + 60), so that's 252 faces.

Castle ironside is made up of 7 models, I think.

So, yes, you should be able to make complicated models. The best thing to do is to try to make sure that you are using non-triangle faces if possible. squares, octagons, hexagons, and whatever else, since each of those only counts as a single face to the game engine.

At some point, I might try to make the import process combine triangle faces into bigger shapes, but that's not planned any time soon.

I will change the editor to break complex models into many smaller ones as soon as I figure out the texture coordinate problem.

I haven't seen anything limiting how many models are on a map.
The largest level in MM6 contains 120 models. And there are a few other than are also between 115 and 120.

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GreatEmerald
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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 09 Mar 2010, 19:56

64 face limit, wow... For example, Unreal Engine 1 has I think around 64000 polygon limit per model, so 64 sounds really pathetic... And the engines were created about the same time, 1997...

EDIT: No wait, it actually seems that the actual polygon limit of UE1 is 2147483648 - almost unlimited (or, rather, "more than you can afford" XD ).

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Unread postby mkienenb » 10 Mar 2010, 14:14

GreatEmerald wrote:64 face limit, wow... For example, Unreal Engine 1 has I think around 64000 polygon limit per model, so 64 sounds really pathetic... And the engines were created about the same time, 1997...

EDIT: No wait, it actually seems that the actual polygon limit of UE1 is 2147483648 - almost unlimited (or, rather, "more than you can afford" XD ).
On the other hand, this was a game designed by people who likely had no previous 3d experience and it was done entirely in software rather than in a graphics card hardware.

And if you use 19-sided polygons, you can have 1088 triangles per model :)

Since MM5 was released in 1993, there's a good chance that MM6 was ith started in 1993 or 1994. So yeah, 3 years later, a state-of the-art game might be allowing (although not running) 2 billion triangles, while MM6 limps along at probably only 50,000 triangles at a time :)

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 10 Mar 2010, 17:18

Oh, it supports non-triangular faces? That's cool, AFAIK all UEs only support triangulated models.
UE1 was initially released only with software rendering, too :)
Hmm, then what took NWC so long to create this game?

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Unread postby GrayFace » 10 Mar 2010, 19:57

I think that's because they made Heroes 1 and 2 in that period.

NWC programmers had an unexplainable love for limits. They've put tightest limits on anything they could put them on :)
mkienenb wrote:The largest level in MM6 contains 120 models.
If you add 10 more to it, I can test if there's a limit.
My patches: MM6 MM7 MM8. MMExtension. Tools. Also, I love Knytt Stories and Knytt Underground. I'm also known as sergroj.

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Unread postby GreatEmerald » 10 Mar 2010, 21:09

GrayFace wrote:NWC programmers had an unexplainable love for limits. They've put tightest limits on anything they could put them on :)

If you add 10 more to it, I can test if there's a limit.
Maybe they thought it would optimise things... Though it doesn't help too much, for example, I still get lag in MM8 Plane of Air.

8 to be precise, and if you can't put the 9th in, you have a 2^7 model limit :)

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Unread postby mkienenb » 10 Mar 2010, 21:31

GrayFace wrote:
mkienenb wrote:The largest level in MM6 contains 120 models.
If you add 10 more to it, I can test if there's a limit.
I didn't test it, but I quickly created and emailed you Outc2-with-133-models.zip

Shouldn't be an issue.

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Unread postby mkienenb » 14 Mar 2010, 02:39

vladimir-maestro wrote:also you can try more detailed model with more polygons
Image
http://slil.ru/28759422
Wow!

That thing is huge!

I manually broke the file up into 8 pieces as I haven't implemented automatic model sectioning, and it's definitely visible.
The floor seems to be fine, but there's still a lot of problems.

I'm almost thinking that the normals for your models are all inverted or at least not quite right.

I think Sergey and I have finally got something pretty close for dealing with textures -- the textures look much better now. But the faces don't show up at the right times, which probably means the normals aren't correct -- the MM engine won't show the back-side of a face, which is determined by the normal.

If you want, I'll email you the Oute3 map with your objects on it.
Pictures don't really do them justice due to the normal visibility issue, but when you are actually walking around in the map, it's better :)

Oute3 is about 1Mb. It'll probably be a little smaller once it's zipped up, but it'll then get expanded again when it goes out as an email message.

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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 14 Mar 2010, 07:23

i'm not sure what is wrong with normals - i use onesided textures and 3D max show them to me. if normal is inverted - max show me pure black polygon in every angle - and i invert it back...but if it was textured i guess it should be fine. i cannot test every polygon\face in the model to be 10% sure that it is fine cause i cannot identify it...it visible as normal 8|
You can contact me here:
maestro_mod@yahoo.com
vladud @ yandex.ru - preferred one
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Site about MODs: http://www.mmgames.ru
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if you wish to upload some materials for this site - let me know.

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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 14 Mar 2010, 07:36

tried to unify normals...
if it won't work - i do not know waht to do
http://slil.ru/28790928
You can contact me here:
maestro_mod@yahoo.com
vladud @ yandex.ru - preferred one
---
Site about MODs: http://www.mmgames.ru
---
if you wish to upload some materials for this site - let me know.

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Unread postby mkienenb » 14 Mar 2010, 18:10

vladimir-maestro wrote:i'm not sure what is wrong with normals - i use onesided textures and 3D max show them to me. if normal is inverted - max show me pure black polygon in every angle - and i invert it back...but if it was textured i guess it should be fine. i cannot test every polygon\face in the model to be 10% sure that it is fine cause i cannot identify it...it visible as normal 8|
vladimir-maestro wrote:tried to unify normals...
if it won't work - i do not know waht to do
http://slil.ru/28790928
I wasn't very clear my last message. The problem is probably not your normals. The problem is determining the format that the MM engine expects for normals.

It is not necessary for you to normalize the normals. This happens automatically during the import since the .obj file format does not require normalized normals.

Since you are able to see normals with 3D max, perhaps I will send you an exported MM6 building and you can tell me if the normals look right in 3d Max.

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Unread postby mkienenb » 15 Mar 2010, 04:02

The problem is the vertex order -- apparently the MM engine won't accept both valid orderings, and the default ordering of Blender and 3dMax is the opposite of what it wants.

Here's some screenshots of the temple and warp in the game.

The temple columns are missing. Not sure why that is yet. Maybe a bug in the import.
Also, there's some weird streaking for distant parts of the temple.

The warp texture also didn't load as the AutoLod program was unable to create a palette for it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/mkienenb/MM ... 3712515106

http://picasaweb.google.com/mkienenb/MM ... 0071735586

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vladimir-maestro
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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 15 Mar 2010, 06:23

sent a new one.
now it displayed correct even after transform manipulations - poly, patch, mesh - everything is quite well.
other models were ruined after such procedures but this stays the same and no bugs seen.
You can contact me here:
maestro_mod@yahoo.com
vladud @ yandex.ru - preferred one
---
Site about MODs: http://www.mmgames.ru
---
if you wish to upload some materials for this site - let me know.

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vladimir-maestro
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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 15 Mar 2010, 06:24

noticed another option during creating this one "extrude by normals"... strange but could it be that without this option normals were wraped out O.o

P.S.
if scale is wrong - i'm changing for millimetres and metres to create my tour-firm design project and may switch it =)
You can contact me here:
maestro_mod@yahoo.com
vladud @ yandex.ru - preferred one
---
Site about MODs: http://www.mmgames.ru
---
if you wish to upload some materials for this site - let me know.

mkienenb
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Unread postby mkienenb » 15 Mar 2010, 13:07

I think your original models will probably work now as long as they were correct in 3d max. The standard obj format is counter-clockwise vertex order. The MM engine requires clockwise vertex order.

If the engine was consistently written, it would only need normals or the vertex order, but not both, since you can compute one from the other. But as it is, both have to be provided and be in agreement.

This does not mean that the obj file has to provide both. I can compute the normals from the vertex order, although I am not currently doing so.

Also, vertex textures are currently not being used, although I think these might influence the positioning of the bitmap at some point down the road. MM models don't use vertex coordinates, but instead have flip texture horizontal / flip texture vertical attributes. I am not yet certain if the offset of the texture can be adjusted, and how it can be adjusted. I will probably delay work on this until much later as it is only occasionally needed.

Scale is helpful, but I have created some custom directives for the obj file to determine scale and location for now.

For example:

# MM6: origin 200 1000 500
# MM6: scale 100 100 100

The primary work of importing models is now done. There remains a lot of cleanup, but I think the biggest challenges are finished.

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Unread postby GrayFace » 15 Mar 2010, 15:36

Ever wondered how Castle Ironfist looks from the inside? :D
Image

Offsets aren't a problem.

Looks like the U and V flips are ignored outdoors.
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vladimir-maestro
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Unread postby vladimir-maestro » 21 Apr 2010, 20:46

any news?
You can contact me here:
maestro_mod@yahoo.com
vladud @ yandex.ru - preferred one
---
Site about MODs: http://www.mmgames.ru
---
if you wish to upload some materials for this site - let me know.

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Unread postby mkienenb » 21 Apr 2010, 21:06

Funny you should ask just now -- I just started looking at it again 5 minutes ago.

I think the 3d model import/export works at this point.

These are the issues I would like to fix before making a public release:

-- bug: bmodels not selectable once moved (lost bounding box?)

-- bug: Textures get lost when a new 3d view is opened
=== for now, reuse view instead of allowing multiple 3d views to be open
===== redraw with current map
===== start using central service for current map
===== don't create additional 2d view panels

- missing feature: Need the ability to delete a sprite/bmodel.

-- unconfirmed bug: 3d view might not be updated after tile changes are made.

- missing feature: view/select spawn point and create views for editing those
-- allow spawn point to be moved when the terrain is moved.


=== desirable, but not a showstopper

- missing feature:Probably should have an area tile change tool..

-- missing feature: menu items for creating a new empty map
----- (flat, island, lake, mountain, random) (desert, grassland, etc)
-- missing feature: import height map
-- missing feature: import tile map?

-- missing feature: bmodel import options:
---- ability to interactively specify origin
---- ability to interactively specify scaling

-- bug: sprites don't display until a key is pressed

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Status??

Unread postby Big Daddy Jim » 12 Jul 2010, 14:35

Hey Mike,

It's been a while since you posted a status on the editor update. How are things progressing?

Inquiring minds want to know.

BDJ
"BDJ the Coding Wizard has moved out of the Coding Fortress, has retired from Might & Magic game modification, and now lives a peaceful life in Alto Lino, Republic de Panama.

http://www.mediafire.com/BDJs


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