Are Knights and Robbers useless classes in MM3-5?

[urnothere]

I just finished playing through MM3 and am about to start on MM4-5, however I noticed something about some of the base classes: they're useless, specifically the knight and robber classes.

My party for MM3 was: Paladin, Knight, Robber, Ranger, Sorcerer, Cleric

However, I was thinking that for MM4-5, I should change the knight to a barbarian, the robber to a ninja and probably the ranger to another barbarian (no more druid spells).

The difference between a barbarian and knight is that the barbarian has more HP and attacks, but the disadvantage is that they can use less weapons and armor, right? In MM3 at least this was no disadvantage at all. By the end of the game all my characters had AC that was basically the same thanks to obsidian accessories, so plate armor vs. ring armor (or whatever the max for barbarians is) is a moot point.

Also, robbers vs. ninjas. Ninjas are better fighters than robbers but only start with 15 less thievery skills. They both get +2 per level. Being that there should be ways to pump up thievery, isn't the robber useless as well?

So my proposed party for MM4-5 is: Paladin, Barbarian, Barbarian, Ninja, Cleric, Sorcerer. (I like having a second healer so the Paladin stays, but never needed a 2nd sorcerer in MM3).

Note: These are my observations from MM3. Did they seriously rebalance anything at all in MM4-5 (enemy weaknesses, equipment, availability of stat boosts, etc), to make serious changes in the gameplay?

[tolich]

I must note that I've finished MM3, MM4, and MM5 (and WoX, of course) with the basic starting party. So I think this choice doesn´t really matter.

[urnothere]

Yes I know that it really doesn't matter that much but I want to try and find the most optimal party and after playing MM3, realized that basic knights and robbers don't really have any advantages over barbarians and ninjas and wanted to see what others thought.

[Mn]

You can replace Knight in the beginning of games in tavern to any class you like. My advice - replace ranger and(or) barbarian in start party to second archer or mage - Lloyd Beacons are useful. About thief/ninja - I don't can compare them - choice is yours. But if you cheat begin of the game with secret mirror portals (World of Xeen or MM4) - you can play without thief/ninja, it's possible buy thievery plus all others abilities to any class, thievery will raise slowly, but I think this is enouth to play.
I want to play with only three party members - Paladin and two archers. (or only paladin and one archer) and train them to max (200) level.

[koval321]

I finished world of xeen (mm 4 and 5) with four characters: knight, rogue, mage, cleric. And i must say knight was very usefull, even better than in later games, because at high level he got many hit in one round, with obsidian weapon and large strenght he was able to kill hydra or dragon by one hit. Best tactic is to set lloyd beacons near fountains, in mm 3-5 they give huge bonus. I found that later games was different and this what was good before now was limited, probably to balance game.

[Mn]

I finished world of xeen (mm 4 and 5) with four characters: knight, rogue, mage, cleric. And i must say knight was very usefull, even better than in later games, because at high level he got many hit in one round, with obsidian weapon and large strenght he was able to kill hydra or dragon by one hit. Best tactic is to set lloyd beacons near fountains, in mm 3-5 they give huge bonus. I found that later games was different and this what was good before now was limited, probably to balance game.

Yes, Knights are very good fighters, But I don't like non-magic classes. To kill dragon/hydra enouth to hit several times by all party with good veapon, so fighters advantage is not very principal. My liked class in all MM from 3 to 6 is archers - they have max balance of fighting and spellcasting. I finished World of Xeen by Thief-Paladin-Archer-Archer and now my main goal is train same party without thief to 200 level. From cheating Dragon treasure I reseived only 50000 gold and must now accumulate 100000 golg by first level party to buy all skilles in Shangri-La for one party member. I have already 70000 in bank and can use Wizards help anytime (all gems in bank) without level lost. I'm noticed interesting thing - if any percon with no thievery skill try to steal something from armory-weapon shop, party reseived "award" "convicted thief" and placed into jail for one year. May be, with maximum of gold (I has about 15 mln and it's no limit - I plan to accumulate about 30-40 mln) it's possible take year gold procents from bank? Profit must be about 5 mln every time. I plan verify this. Money is very critical resourse in mm4-5. Sorry my English.

[urnothere]

Isn't a barbarian a better fighter and has more HP than a knight? What advantage does knight have over barbarian? Just some armor, right?

[koval321]

Am wonder about possibility to finish WoX game using one character. Alone he should gain exp very fast. Maybe its doable in any class, just more or less frustrating. Usualy weakest looking char is strongest solo, for example fairy in wizardry8 or mage in baldurs gate.

[tolich]

I tried WoX solo once, and found that Pathfinding and Montaning don't work for lone character, you must have at least two of them.

[urnothere]

Couldn't you try a solo campaign with a mage, since they can use the teleport spells to get around mountains and forests?

[tolich]

Mages need more XP to level, and possibly will fail with chests. I tried a thief to open chests and crates.

[Rune_Caster]

World of Xeen Exp Charts

The Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Knight and Ninja require 1,500 for level 2, 3,000 for level 3, 6000 for level 4, 12,000 for level 5, 24,000 for level 5, 48,000 for level 6, 96,000 for level 7, 192,000 for level 8, 384,000 for level 9, 768,000 for level 10, 1 mil 536 thousand for level 11, 2 mil 56 thousand for level 12, onward the same amount 1 mil 24 thousand more exp is required for the next level.

The Archer, Sorcerer, Paladin and Ranger require 2,000 for level 2, 4,000 for level 3, 8,000 for level 4, 16,000 for level 5, 32,000 for level 6, 64,000 for level 7, 128,000 for level 8, 256,000 for level 9, 512,000 for level 10, 1 mil 24 thousand for level 11, 2 mil 48 thousand for level 12, onward the same amount 1 mil 24 thousand more exp for the next level.

The Robber require 1,000 for level 2, 2,000 for level 3, 4,000 for level 4, 8,000 for level 5, 16,000 for level 6, 32,000 for level 7, 64,000 for level 8, 128,000 for level 9, 256,000 for level 10, 512,000 for level 11, 1 mil 24 thousand for level 12, 2 mil 48 thousand for level 13, onward the same amount 1 mil 24 thousand more exp for the next level.

[Rune_Caster]

Knights can wear plate armor and use a few more weapons then a Barbarian but trade off two hp per level and one less attack per round...

Barbarians can only wear cloth or scale armor, so their armor value is close to sorcerer's armor...

Think of knights as armored Ninja... lol

[tolich]

The diffrence between the Obsidian Plate Armor and Obsidian Padded armor is not so big to be counted in.
And Sorcerers often raise their Speed stat.

[Rune_Caster]

I have played games with a Knight, Paladin, Archer, Ninja, Cleric and Sorcerer. Games with a Barbarian, Paladin, Archer, Ninja, Cleric and Sorcerer. So far the only diffrence I have noticed is slightly higher hp and lower armor class, and one more attack every few levels...

[jeffh]

The diffrence between the Obsidian Plate Armor and Obsidian Padded armor is not so big to be counted in.
And Sorcerers often raise their Speed stat.

While it's true that in the endgame, their ACs won't differ significantly, you still have to get there. For the great majority of the game, the difference matters.

I think the knight also gets multiple attacks the fastest, which matters a lot in MM 3-5, but I could be mistaken about that.

[Rune_Caster]

By New World Computing, Inc.

Knight 10 Hp 5 Lvs per Atk
Paladin 8 Hp 6 Lvs per Atk
Archer 7 Hp 6 Lvs per Atk
Cleric 5 Hp 7 Lvs per Atk
Sorcerer 4 Hp 8 Lvs per Atk
Robber 8 Hp 6 Lvs per Atk
Ninja 7 Hp 5 Lvs per Atk
Barbarian 12 Hp 4 Lvs per Atk
Druid 6 Hp 7 Lvs per Atk
Ranger 9 Hp 6 Lvs per Atk