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News → Fabrice Cambounet Q&A

There is a Q&A with Heroes producer Fabrice Cambounet at the new "sfidanzized" heroes-fr.com. The original article is in French, but an English translation is provided. Here is what Fabrice had to say on the patching situation (after 1.6, 2.2 and 3.1):

"The current patch plan is not finished yet. In the now traditional Heroes 5 way, the initial planning has been considerably delayed (about three months). On the bright side, it also allows us to better include fan feedback, since the community rose some issues that we didn't plan to address at first. We still have a few patches to release before we reassess the situation. (...) the support plan for balance and debug is supposed to last beyond 2008 if necessary. The adding features part depends on the end of the patch plan."

And on the new Heroes Complete package:

"The Complete Edition has been entirely carried by our marketing manager, and I use the occasion to publicly thank him for his investment in making the project successful. This special edition indeed allowed to move forward with the art book, which I despaired to see become a reality. I wrote the general layout two years ago already, during a sleepless night in an overheated hotel in centre Moscow. It was initially planned for a coordinated release with Heroes 5, then with Hammers of Fate. The third try has finally succeeded, and the result is highly worth the wait. I really hope the fans will like it!"

Comments
	Moragauth at 2008-01-15 09:07 wrote:
	I'll keep my last thoughts on the matter silent, in order to avoid further sidetracking the topic. Edited on Tue, Jan 15 2008, 09:12 by Moragauth
	ThunderTitan at 2008-01-15 04:01 wrote:
	Start a thread on every forum, and have someone draw his attention to each...
	Muszka at 2008-01-14 22:09 wrote:
	The question becomes how precisely all the people who want them to reconsider the decision should give the feedback. If there's no method for such, he can hardly be surprised at not receiving it. :) Exactly. But how should we, I mean the community give the feedback? There's a ceirtan list, where to sign up, and to put our problems with the editor there? Or should we, and any other communities create one? And than someone could filter it. But would that be enough? Or how else could we give that feedback, because the 'community leader' thing seemingly doesn't work, and now I didn't mean that the 'comm. leaders' are the ones to blame, or do they have any fault, or haven't they done all they could.
	Bandobras Took at 2008-01-14 18:02 wrote:
	Est-il prévu de rendre plus accessible l'éditeur, d'améliorer son ergonomie ? Malheureusement non, à court terme nous n’avons pas prévu d’update de l’éditeur. Cela sera peut-être à reconsidérer mais je n’ai pas eu beaucoup de retours de la communauté sur ce sujet. Is it planned to make the editor easier to use; to improve its design? Sadly, no. In the short term we have not planned an editor update. This could perhaps be reconsidered but I have not had a lot of returns from the community on this subject . (Translation my own; emphasis added) The subject to which he is referring is whether the decision not to update the editor should be reconsidered. If you want him to have feedback on whether they should reconsider that decision, you need to go give it to him. The question becomes how precisely all the people who want them to reconsider the decision should give the feedback. If there's no method for such, he can hardly be surprised at not receiving it. :)
	Kristo at 2008-01-14 15:59 wrote:
	Ok kids, let's stop the meta-discussion right there. Back on topic.
	ThunderTitan at 2008-01-14 15:20 wrote:
	All i kniow is that if someone calls you mad you punch them in the face... because it's rude to prove them wrong...
	Muszka at 2008-01-14 13:31 wrote:
	@MER Nice Dream. I had it once... but I don't beileve it may come true. but he called JJ "mad"... that's good enough for me. I think you know that there is more than one meaning of "mad" :tired: . Not at all. It's the way of things. Moreover I may be mad, but certainly not at everybody, and I don't think that I oppose nearly everybody everytime. I do oppose posts and opinions, though, I do find wrong and have good reason to - in general I tend to explain my opinion and give reasons for them. Maybe I exagerated a bit, but I can't remember not even a single post of yours, where you were not arguing with somebody, or maybe that I wasn't active enough here. But I never said that you do not reason your opinions, or those are wrong. Since good or bad are extremly relative, and mainly depend on the point of view. So opionions may oppose and still be correct.
	ThunderTitan at 2008-01-14 11:18 wrote:
	>>TT: does that really qualify as a fight? I've seen much worse.<< Meh, didn't bother to check out previous pages... but he called JJ "mad"... that's good enough for me. MORTAL KOMBAT... FIGHT!
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-14 10:16 wrote:
	Not at all. It's the way of things. Moreover I may be mad, but certainly not at everybody, and I don't think that I oppose nearly everybody everytime. I do oppose posts and opinions, though, I do find wrong and have good reason to - in general I tend to explain my opinion and give reasons for them.
	MER at 2008-01-14 10:15 wrote:
	It is sad that people here are fighting about something when the real people to blame sit in their companies' chairs, counting their profit and don't give a s**t about that. It is sad that we see the whole magic of the HOMM universe falling apart due to never ending screw-ups from its owners/developers, even the community is tearing. I'm done with H5 too, It's already clear to me that UbiVal are incapable of continuing the franchise as it should be, they can only disappoint the fans over and over. Come to think of it, a few years ago, when no one knew that Ubi was getting the HOMM's rights and H5 was just a rumor, I all-heartedly hoped that the people to continue the game would be some of the great guys that made WoG or similar addons. These ppl really know what HOMM universe needs and obviously know how to do it. Alas, as always Mr. Money has the final word as always and coupled with Mrs Incompetence ruin everything they touch. IMHO, if Ubi learn their lesson and listen to their marketing and accounting departments less (highly unlikely), they can do smth good if they hire the WoG team to make H6 without intervening in their development in any way. These are only empty hopes I guess, but given the current situation only hopes are left ;(. Just a little more day-dreaming ;) : It'll be the happiest thing if I come here some day and see a big title: Ubi sold HOMM to Blizzard/Firaxis/WoG team or s.o. else who despite counting money knows what quality and community mean :).
	Muszka at 2008-01-14 10:03 wrote:
	TT: does that really qualify as a fight? I've seen much worse. Oh c'mon, it may be that it's not war, but it a "gangfight". :) "The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight." In the la la land of simplistic game theory maybe. If Nival wants to keep making money, that isn't a very good way to do it. Fact is, if you don't like the game, sell it and don't buy another thing from Ubi or Nival. I like the game, so I have no problem. I see it as a good money making way, because I saw a lot of new people who bought the game because it's "nice and shiny", and the old fans bought the game in search of hope, or because of any other reason. I like the game too, but some are don't and some old guys will leave, because they were ignored. And that's sad. Don't you find it so?
	Angelspit at 2008-01-14 09:29 wrote:
	TT: does that really qualify as a fight? I've seen much worse.
	Moragauth at 2008-01-14 08:30 wrote:
	"The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight." In the la la land of simplistic game theory maybe. If Nival wants to keep making money, that isn't a very good way to do it. Fact is, if you don't like the game, sell it and don't buy another thing from Ubi or Nival. I like the game, so I have no problem.
	ThunderTitan at 2008-01-14 08:28 wrote:
	OMG, a fight on CH without me at the forefront?! How odd.
	Muszka at 2008-01-14 07:54 wrote:
	@JJ Why are you nervous? Nervous? What makes you think I am nervous of all things? I mean, why should I be? I would make a little correction. You seem to be mad at everybody. I don't know why is that, nor is my buisness, it's just weird a bit, that you oppose nearly everybody, everytime. For example it may seem that you defend Ubisoft, while I don't think you are on their side.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-14 01:31 wrote:
	@JJ Why are you nervous? Nervous? What makes you think I am nervous of all things? I mean, why should I be?
	Humakt at 2008-01-13 23:24 wrote:
	This community makes me laugh too sometimes. ;) About the editor, what I'd like to really see is simple objects that we had in H3 and H4, namely the Border Gates and Quest Gates (border/quest guards that do not disappear). They have been such a big design elements in many of my maps that I'm kind of surprised that no other map makers seem to miss them. Also while Heroes 5 is pretty, it could use more scenery objects.
	Muszka at 2008-01-13 16:57 wrote:
	@JJ Why are you nervous? /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// First I will say that and I resent that implication, prior to his recent statements I've never questioned Fabrice's motives or intelligence. In fact in several threads I pointed out (most several months ago, once again pointing out how implausible his comment was) Fabrice had mentioned that more work on the editor was forthcoming. I had always assumed he was intuned and concerned with the fans, but now there are big questions on the intuned part, but I still believe he cares about the fans. We however need more than someone who cares. I didn't questioned his intelligents either, nor another I did question any other skill of his. But I don't like how he treats fans. If it's "care", how he treats them, us, than I don't want of his care. And from another view, if we take the fact, that it told that more work on the editor will come, and than nothing, or nearly nothing, than he either isn't serious, either doesn't cares. The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight. I believe in human evilness. Everyone has evil in hiself/herself, as it has good. But evil has more probability to come out, especially if there's money and power in the game. I also believe that more 99% of people would do the same. Oh, let me quote something I learned from Timothy Duncan and from his Goldheart: In everyone, young or old, lives a demon made of gold.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-13 13:26 wrote:
	Sorry JJ, I should've said Ubi. Got your employers mixed up. By the way, I'd do you a service and requote Zamolxis, since you've obviously left out an important part of his message: [Zam quote] "Regarding the 'game designer' story, it comes as no suprise for me that JJ - member of what we could call "Ubi's selected elite group" - tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival (whom he was actually very much defending back in 2005-2006)." [eoq] ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You could do me, yourself and everyone else a better service by simply reading the posts someone else comments upon instead of simply requoting the comments because you run the danger of simply requoting a lot of nonsense. Which is the case here. To help you onto the right track I requote myself: "I would even go so far and say that for the map editor after 3 months or so a poll in the map-makers' guilds might have been made which would have solved the input question (which is of course not possible for the game as such). INSTEAD the same process as for the game as such was used at that time (late summer 06; patch 1.3) for the editor debugging and a bit later for a general streamlining process (patch 1.4), probably a mistake. That mistake is the direct consequence of underestimating the complexity of the editor as such and the map-making process, which is a lot more difficult to verify than game aspects (for which you have cheat codes at that)." You may note that this is not about Nival, but instead of the fly that Zamolxis dramatically elephantizes as "Ubi's selected elite group" and Fabrice and Ubisoft. Quite obviously Jeff had absolutely no problem grasping what I meant, so if you don't care to read MY posts you may read at least HIS - he's not under any suspicion to be all too UBI-, Nival- or JJ-friendly, so you don't run any danger of being contaminated with noisome thoughts poisoning your sanity or whatever if you do.
	ywhtptgtfo at 2008-01-13 12:19 wrote:
	-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said, Chuck. And to illustrate the point, here are 2 quotes from this thread. The first is from Zamolxis, page 3: "... it comes as no suprise for me that JJ... tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival..." Now compare that with: a quote from yw.... from page 4 of this thread: "As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected." No further comment. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sorry JJ, I should've said Ubi. Got your employers mixed up. By the way, I'd do you a service and requote Zamolxis, since you've obviously left out an important part of his message: "Regarding the 'game designer' story, it comes as no suprise for me that JJ - member of what we could call "Ubi's selected elite group" - tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival (whom he was actually very much defending back in 2005-2006)."
	ywhtptgtfo at 2008-01-13 12:08 wrote:
	---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope Fabrice gets his toes burned badly enough he will think before he speaks, and that he has learned there are plenty of avenues of information available, and most of them are free and unsolicited, all he needs to do is lift his head out of the sand and look. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Not the first time he needs to anyway. I wonder what's the next big mistake Nival will make.
	jeff at 2008-01-13 11:30 wrote:
	It was meant rather to se clearly the ignorance of Fabrice. And don't tell me, that you had a good opinion of him, before his statement. First I will say that and I resent that implication, prior to his recent statements I've never questioned Fabrice's motives or intelligence. In fact in several threads I pointed out (most several months ago, once again pointing out how implausible his comment was) Fabrice had mentioned that more work on the editor was forthcoming. I had always assumed he was intuned and concerned with the fans, but now there are big questions on the intuned part, but I still believe he cares about the fans. We however need more than someone who cares. But I don't se Nival or Ubi in this state. As long as they get their money, they won't really care what fans think about them. Nor I would. The fact you say as long as you got your money you would not care about fans is an interesting insight.
	Muszka at 2008-01-13 10:44 wrote:
	There is steroid controversy in Europe too, I know of at least one case. For example the one, where a former olympic champion female swimmer was accused. Though later it became obvious, she was innocent in in the steroid accusements. But the whole thing made the swimmer to retire, and to not to go to the next olimpics. What was good in it? Indeed, as you said, nothing, it made her to look bad, and mad her to lose the will to compete. But I don't se Nival or Ubi in this state. As long as they get their money, they won't really care what fans think about them. Nor I would. The whole enemy and friend idea was meant a bit generally, I won't see JJ or Sir Charles as an enemy who pacted with UBI, no way! They just try to be realistic. They saw things some of could not. Contrarly, I see that most of us are in the same boat, struggring after the ship what went allready, and we'll be castaways till the next one (H6), and we blame each other. It was meant rather to se clearly the ignorance of Fabrice. And don't tell me, that you had a good opinion of him, before his statement. In the end I hope there would be no tearing apart, I don't really believe in "the end" myth, in no way of it. But I do believe that some people would leave the community, because some left already, and that's sad indeed. And that's a loss that we'll mourn later.
	jeff at 2008-01-13 10:00 wrote:
	As I said before, he would have been better to say the editor will not be updated without explanation, at least then his ineptitude would not have been revealed. Why? Isn't it better to see clearly, who is friends, and who's an enemy. It's all about PR and the public's perception, my god look at the steroids controversy here in the states. Whether it was his responsibility or not, that comment made him look bad, UBI look bad and Nival look bad, and what was gained nothing, but a lot of venting (me included) that will lead nowhere as far as H-V is concerned. I would be less nervous about the future for H-VI, if I was confident in Fabrice's ability to assess what the fan's want. His comment certainly leaves open to question that ability. Saying nothing or saying we heard but decided it was not practical to incorporate the changes in the current editor may have angered people, but those positions could be defended on an economic basis, but to say no one supplied information on the editor at the very least makes him ‘look’ like a moron. As far as this thread is concerned it has gone on long enough for me as we are just restating our previous statements. JJ has several good points many of which I agreed with (see my earlier post) which is unusual. I hope Fabrice gets his toes burned badly enough he will think before he speaks, and that he has learned there are plenty of avenues of information available, and most of them are free and unsolicited, all he needs to do is lift his head out of the sand and look. Lastly I doubt such a statement was made to weed out friends and enemies, if that were true most would fall in the enemy camp as even JJ has criticized UBI on the rare occasion. That is just a foolish idea and one that would forever tear apart the fan base.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-13 05:44 wrote:
	I'm sure you had something new to say, so edit it already, or is this last post a subtle suggestion that the same things are repeated over and over again?
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-13 04:30 wrote:
	Well said, Chuck. And to illustrate the point, here are 2 quotes from this thread. The first is from Zamolxis, page 3: "... it comes as no suprise for me that JJ... tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival..." Now compare that with: a quote from yw.... from page 4 of this thread: "As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected." No further comment.
	ywhtptgtfo at 2008-01-13 00:37 wrote:
	----------------------------------------------------------------------------- When Fabrice says that he didn't recieve much feedback about the editor, he's not talking about NOW. But rather back several months ago when they still had a budget that could've done something constructive about it. If you continued reading you'd see that he says that "We have reached the end of the product lifecycle for Heroes 5, and adding new elements or rework developpement tools is not possible at this stage." We sadly missed that boat. It's already sailed. So instead of griping about the past, let's focus on the future and make sure we don't have the same mistakes with H6's editor. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well, that's unfortunate. I agree that the best thing to do is to move on, but it's also understandable for people to throw tomatos at Nival and whoever that are supposed to be their eyes and ears in the community (the community leaders?). The thing with map editor is just too obvious to be missed (but I am sure the horde of posts below already went over that and no, I don't have time to read them all). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ And the JJ digs are getting VERY old VERY quickly. JJ bashes Nival when warrented....and praises them when appropriate too. I certainly didn't see him "supporting" them in THIS thread. Did YOU? Or are you reading things INTO his posts like many here love to do? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I am just interpreting things as I see them. On numerous occasions where the game quality was discussed, he had a tendency of relentlessly defending Nival using reasonings that are not exactly agreeable (by my standards). I don't intend to make this a discussion about JJ, so feel free to leave it at that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nival isn't perfect. They made many mistakes on this game. But they also made many GOOD things with this game but people just politely overlook those things because it doesn't support their particular gripe. Sad. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Nival's not doing any charity work here. I bought the whole Heroes 5 package with good money: (50 + 30 + 30) x 15% tax =~ 150 Canadian dollars - for one who's studying full time and working part time, it's a lot of money. Now, I am not sure what kind of gripe you are refering to but I certainly don't think it's wise to trivialize negative perspectives on HoMM5. Personally, I stopped criticizing the game after the release of TotE (which was okay), but that doesn't mean others should have the same tolerance for 10-min waiting time b/w AI move (which I passed with a textbook on my thigh).
	Muszka at 2008-01-13 00:31 wrote:
	. Slava, are you out there somewhere? Is this a praise? I think something went terribly wrong if we need praises. Praises used to come, when hope begins to fade. As I said before, he would have been better to say the editor will not be updated without explanation, at least then his ineptitude would not have been revealed. Why? Isn't it better to see clearly, who is friends, and who's an enemy.
	Muszka at 2008-01-13 00:26 wrote:
	"A game has problems and members of fan community are to blame? I find this a bit scary." Yep. We'll eat each other alive till not much will be left out of the community, while Ubisoft will stay on the side laughing of how fool we all are and counting their money. Indeed. We point at each other with fingers, and blame each other because something went wrong. We see that H5 could have been the great sequel to H3, we see it as a good game, but still it's not like it should be, like it could have been better. For some of us is good, is great, I feel the "just one more turn" feeling, I like it, but many don't, so there is a problem, what should have been solved, but now it won't be because of the "money counting Ubisoft", to use Zamolxis' words. If there's a problem, someone made something wrong, somebody has the fault. Or maybe there are more of those who could have done something and they didn't. We (the comunity), blame who can, the comunity leaders, because though I may write a letter to Fabrice or any other chief developer, blaming them for my favorite game didn't came up like I would have wanted, but the best that can happen is a common answer, with blah, blah, blah in it. Still I find this is all normal, because they don't know me, I may be a selfish idiot. But on the other hand there are the community leaders who can speak, and their words are listened, their ideas might get implemented. They have a chance to add something to the game, while, our chances are rather scum. Sometimes we blame them rightfully, because of the chances mentioned above, because they have to spoke to be listened, instead of being mute. But in the most cases we blame them, (you) wrongfully, because -we forget that one can spoke loudest if he isn't listened. And sometimes even if the one who listens, seemingly agrees, than walking out of the room, just forgets a part, or all of the disscussion. -we forget that interaction is needed from both sides. -we forget, the ones mentioned by Sir Charles, that a community leader, presumably has a job, family and still he/she devotes some of his/her free time to a game, and he does that willingly, and we have no rights to ask anything from him/her. -we forget that he/she is also a player/mapmaker who shares our loss if the game it's not how it should be. But this cannot be undone. The game has flaws, the two biggest are the old fans, who left, because they felt, that this got to much money-centered (is just me, or there are just too many graphics-centered newcommers, who'll disappear, once they can get the new Quake 5 or Halo 4), and the fans didn't get the rightfully wanted attention. And of course the other big negative element of the game is the editor. To use of Sir Charles' words once again, this ship has gone, we see the mistakes now, the question is that can we square our shoulders to the task ahead, and find the soultion in the future, what surely isn't the internal conflict. Have we learned of the errors, to not let H6 to go wrong, because afterr all, we can have our two cent in the final game, and here I meant not just the CH, and RT, but the other communities too.
	jeff at 2008-01-12 18:58 wrote:
	When Fabrice says that he didn't recieve much feedback about the editor, he's not talking about NOW. But rather back several months ago when they still had a budget that could've done something constructive about it. Several months ago or one month after the editor was released, all forums were filled with threads or at least posts asking, begging or demanding that something be done, so none of this is an excuse or explanation that holds water or passes the common sense test. So he did not have to go through all threads, I don’t believe anyone does, but at the very least he could have asked his moderators on the official forum and they could have directed his attention to the threads there. Is it too late, yes but their/his arrogance or incompetence your choice has alienated many long time fans. Fabrice screwed up big time, and then he screws even more saying he had no input. As I said before, he would have been better to say the editor will not be updated without explanation, at least then his ineptitude would not have been revealed.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-12 18:28 wrote:
	quote from ywhtptgtfo: "Why not just have the community leaders contact Fabrice and tell him that he missed something about the map editors? I am sure there's much more than *****ing that can be done about this. As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected." ------------------------------- When Fabrice says that he didn't recieve much feedback about the editor, he's not talking about NOW. But rather back several months ago when they still had a budget that could've done something constructive about it. If you continued reading you'd see that he says that "We have reached the end of the product lifecycle for Heroes 5, and adding new elements or rework developpement tools is not possible at this stage." We sadly missed that boat. It's already sailed. So instead of griping about the past, let's focus on the future and make sure we don't have the same mistakes with H6's editor. And the JJ digs are getting VERY old VERY quickly. JJ bashes Nival when warrented....and praises them when appropriate too. I certainly didn't see him "supporting" them in THIS thread. Did YOU? Or are you reading things INTO his posts like many here love to do? Nival isn't perfect. They made many mistakes on this game. But they also made many GOOD things with this game but people just politely overlook those things because it doesn't support their particular gripe. Sad. Edited on Sat, Jan 12 2008, 18:30 by Sir Charles
	ywhtptgtfo at 2008-01-12 18:20 wrote:
	----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Oh come on. You have seen enough to build your own opinion. You don't need that cheap excuse "what I read out from JJ's post". You are no stranger to all that and when you say you want to point out "that the people who communicate with F are somewhat confused in what is their role", you claim to know a lot more. Shouldn't everyone speak for themselves? And to make it perfectly clear: there are already enough people - for everything, mind you - who are "worrying about quality" and whatnot; but who's willing to take RESPONSIBILITY? Talk is cheap. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- That'd be Nival supposedly.
	ywhtptgtfo at 2008-01-12 18:18 wrote:
	Why not just have the community leaders contact Fabrice and tell him that he missed something about the map editors? I am sure there's much more than *****ing that can be done about this. As for JJ supporting Nival - not like it's unexpected.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-12 17:35 wrote:
	Wow, this discussion took a turn for the worse. There are simply too many posts here to reply to so I won't attempt to. Instead I will simply try to clarify my position a bit. 1. I know the editor problems are frustrating. But those problems are not due to the fans (community leaders...or whatever you want to call that group). That was a botched project by Nival/Ubisoft from the get go. By the time they "made time" to address the difficulties of it, it was pretty much too late to invest too much time and money on something that was at the end of it's cycle. Sure, I'd love to see a well done editor overhaul for H5...but then again, I think I'd rather see them focus their efforts on making H6's editor the best yet. Fabrice, Ubisoft & Nival have seen this mistake and it's going to get a higher priority in H6 (as will the AI). 2. My comment about Fabrice reading the forums is accurate. But some of you are reading into that that he reads EVERY forum and EVERY post. That...he doesn't do. Our group does try to gather info for him. But as I mentioned earlier, that hasn't been happening as often as it used to. Not by a long shot. And in regards to the editor, that feedback has definitely not recieved as much attention as bug threads and such. Could we have done better in regards to info-gathering on the editor...absolutely. But that certainly doesn't mean we don't serve a good purpose or that we should get blasted for our efforts. In case you're unaware...we do this for free and for fun...and many of us have full time jobs, spouses & kids. Our free time isn't as free as some here. Cut us a LITTLE slack. 3. The comments about the name of our group (community leaders) or that we're not the "best of the best" I find rather insulting. Most of the members of this group have played Heroes from its inception. And many are some of the very best players in the world. I'm sure you can feel free to dispute that, but there simply aren't many players as knowledgable of this game than we are. But as I said before, it wasn't the goal to get the select few great players. It was an attempt to get a wide variety for varied opinions. In regards to having site admins in the group....think about it. One of the main purposes of our group is to distribute information on the game to the fans. So having site admins is pretty much a no-brainer. And also, remember that site admins also tend to be fanatical players of the game. Why else would they create entire websites based on this game. It's certainly not to make money. Sure, they probably enjoy web design, but they could've made a website about anything. The fact that it's about Heroes confirms there's quite a bit of love of the game involved in the project. So they are defintely concerned about the quality of the game and how it's made. 4. Next, the idea that people unsatisfied with the game were excluded from that group is one of the dumbest statements I've ever read. Fabrice wanted ALL opinions. Positive and negative. In fact, the negative ones are ususally the most useful ones. Sure, we were all honored to be included, but we certainly weren't swayed into spewing the company line as many have suggested. If we disliked something, we say so. If we see a way to improve something, we say so. I'd personally like to add that of all the people that have criticized the game, I've personally put forth ideas/complaints from King Imp the most. Have I put forth ALL of them...of course not. 5. To Zam. sigh Are you really under the impression that you got bumped from the group because you were critical of the game? God I hope not. Everyone in that group is critical of the game. Heck, many (including myself) have BLASTED the game from time to time. To suggest that the ones most displeased by the game aren't included in the group is a pretty silly statement. Who are these people? Do they still play the game? Were they wanting a RTS instead of a TBS? In the end, Ubisoft still has to make the basic game that they want to make, right? The goal of this group is to try to help make the game the best it possibly could be....within the constraints of the basic overall design of the game they want. The thing you tend to overlook is that not every idea you consider good is one that Nival/Ubisoft would consider good. It's an opinion. All of those "great ideas" we gathered early on were NOT ignored as you seem to think. Many were implemented, many were altered and implemented in different ways, many were shelved for later use, and still more were shelved because they didn't fit in with the theme correctly. Could H5 have been a better game? Sure. But instead of focusing on the negatives, you COULD occasionally focus on the positives. It IS a fun and addictive game. It IS a visually stunning game. It IS a feast for the ears. It IS constantly being improved and updated even now. And lastly, please knock off the personal attacks. Just respond to someones' post...not to someone's personality. Fine, JJ and you dislike each other. Get over it and discuss the topic. (and yes, that goes BOTH ways). 6. The goals of this group. First off, we're not paid...we're volunteers. We're not professional bug finders, information gatherers, playtesters or marketing experts. We are, simply put, Heroes fans. We are heroes fans to such extents that we're willing to spend our free time putting together information, web pages, polls, projects, manuals, etc, etc, etc for the good of the OTHER Heroes fans out there. Are you seriously going to point fingers at us for NOT gathering ALL the info? For NOT ensuring the editor is the editor that we should've gotten? For NOT squashing all the bugs? We don't have DIRECT influence on the game. We have direct contact with someone who DOES have direct influence on the game. To assume otherwise is simply wrong.
	ByteBandit at 2008-01-12 15:16 wrote:
	If I remember correctly, H3 was born out of what fans wanted from H2. Hopefully, FC will keep this in mind about the editor for H6. Because, at this stage in the game with H5, money has been made off of the game, and they are moving on. I'm supposing something for the editor will have to be made by a fan. Slava, are you out there somewhere?
	Zamolxis at 2008-01-12 15:07 wrote:
	"A game has problems and members of fan community are to blame? I find this a bit scary." Yep. We'll eat each other alive till not much will be left out of the community, while Ubisoft will stay on the side laughing of how fool we all are and counting their money. I've seen a lot of great people disappearing over the past few years. If even Pitsu and a couple of others like him go, there'll really not be much left around, which is indeed scary. What we started during the saveheroes.org movement could have been the thing that would have brought all the Heroes communities together (ironically F was quoting me on that). Did not know that was leading to the creation later on of a "select group" which, instead of uniting the communities, it actually forces some of its members to a sort of neutrality, or even turns them against other community members. I can't even imagine what thin ice AS must be walking right now, trying to be the great site admin we all know, but in the sametime unable to say too much (either here or to Fabrice), as that will affect not only him personally, but the whole CH.
	Pol at 2008-01-12 15:03 wrote:
	Farbrice is having responsiblity, though I doubt that all of it. His position isn't appearing to be so strong. (unfortunatelly)
	Angelspit at 2008-01-12 14:00 wrote:
	A game has problems and members of fan community are to blame? I find this a bit scary.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 13:44 wrote:
	OK, this is enough, I think you just insulted at least several people, including your own colleagues from CH staff. Someone please close this thread, thank you. I did not intend to insult anyone, but merely to point that the people who communicate with F are somewhat confused in what is their role. About CH, I would not mind to finish moderating. My presence here is anyway hardly more useful than one or two removed spams a week. If any other moderator decides to close it, I will not argue against it. EDIT: Thus, my sincerest apologies if the words were insulting. Such negative version was used on illustrative purposes to antagonize "community leader" and the meaning what I read out from JJ post. I only wish that people would keep open mind, accept other opinions and, particularly those who are in the lead, take the responsibility to care about people around them. Oh come on. You have seen enough to build your own opinion. You don't need that cheap excuse "what I read out from JJ's post". You are no stranger to all that and when you say you want to point out "that the people who communicate with F are somewhat confused in what is their role", you claim to know a lot more. Shouldn't everyone speak for themselves? And to make it perfectly clear: there are already enough people - for everything, mind you - who are "worrying about quality" and whatnot; but who's willing to take RESPONSIBILITY? Talk is cheap.
	King Imp at 2008-01-12 13:29 wrote:
	@ King Imp You can't mean me because I'm not defending the way things were done with the map editor - that should be obvious when reading Jeff's last post. Okay, cool. That's why I said "I think that may be two of you" because while you seemed to be defending the actions as a whole, I couldn't actually tell if you were also defending how the whole map editor thing was handled. I still contend though that this whole small group idea is worthless for gathering info. Relying on a select few to be the "voice for the masses" and then not bothering to pass along pertinent info that is all over the forums is why many things have not been fixed and never will as Fabrice continues to say "Well, I didn't know about it."
	Pitsu at 2008-01-12 13:05 wrote:
	OK, this is enough, I think you just insulted at least several people, including your own colleagues from CH staff. Someone please close this thread, thank you. I did not intend to insult anyone, but merely to point that the people who communicate with F are somewhat confused in what is their role. About CH, I would not mind to finish moderating. My presence here is anyway hardly more useful than one or two removed spams a week. If any other moderator decides to close it, I will not argue against it. EDIT: Thus, my sincerest apologies if the words were insulting. Such negative version was used on illustrative purposes to antagonize "community leader" and the meaning what I read out from JJ post. I only wish that people would keep open mind, accept other opinions and, particularly those who are in the lead, take the responsibility to care about people around them.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 13:02 wrote:
	@ King Imp You can't mean me because I'm not defending the way things were done with the map editor - that should be obvious when reading Jeff's last post. @Pitsu I'm sure you did misunderstand something because the main word is drum roll RESPONSIBILITY Or can you tell me where a "community leader" or a mamber of "that group" actually has or takes RESPONSIBILITY? No one is forced to do anything they don't like, no one is responsible. No one has to take any blame. So what was it you were going to say? @Zam I'm sorry, but I don't see content in your post. YOU were the one who started yet again with "that group" and what its problem was or even is, not me. It is universally called BAD STYLE to try and heap shit onto people or groups someone had a closer than usual relationship or an association to, that ended for some reason or another. If you do, you have to be prepared that the shit comes flying back.
	King Imp at 2008-01-12 12:54 wrote:
	Everyone can worry about the quality of the game as much as they like, but the task of "that group" - and as members of "that group" the task of the site owners - is not "worrying about quality". First and foremost this responsibility is the producer's and designer's and not to be heaped onto anyone's shoulders who isn't paid for anything and just offer their support. Is it just me or does someone else read that what in first posts were called "community leaders" are in fact "Fabrice's lackeys who do not worry about the game quality"? Sorry, but i cannot hide a grin. :D Hopefully, I just misunderstood something. Yeah, I saw that as well. So glad that the job of finding things wrong is being left up to those who have constantly missed obvious glaring errors time and time again. Why are people in this group again?
	arturchix at 2008-01-12 12:52 wrote:
	OK, this is enough, I think you just insulted at least several people, including your own colleagues from CH staff. Someone please close this thread, thank you.
	Zamolxis at 2008-01-12 12:48 wrote:
	:)
	Pitsu at 2008-01-12 12:39 wrote:
	Everyone can worry about the quality of the game as much as they like, but the task of "that group" - and as members of "that group" the task of the site owners - is not "worrying about quality". First and foremost this responsibility is the producer's and designer's and not to be heaped onto anyone's shoulders who isn't paid for anything and just offer their support. Is it just me or does someone else read that what in first posts were called "community leaders" are in fact "Fabrice's lackeys who do not worry about the game quality"? Sorry, but i cannot hide a grin. :D Hopefully, I just misunderstood something.
	Zamolxis at 2008-01-12 12:30 wrote:
	@JJ: (off-topic) pls avoid quoting large posts in the News section. Might look ok on RT but it clutters the CH page of comments to the article, making it hard to read. Going back to the contents of your post, considering one's opinion "utterly foolish" is an implied insult. Maybe not always, but in this case and especially coming from you. You remember once giving yourself away "with witnesses", in a half a page post in which you kept rambling about how much you "hated my guts", not knowing I was also part of that discussion group. And I see not much changed since as every debate with you is an effort of avoiding the flame. I disagree with you as much as I disagree with Sir Charles on what the game "should be", but we never flame each other and are still friends after all this years, because he understands it's just a freaking game, hence no point in hating ppl for their different opinions. Regarding the other innunendos at the end of your post, are you sure you wanna bring that up? As I can easily proove how flawed your argument is. Plus I don't wanna go too much in details on that before I have a private discussion with Fabrice about the "strange conflict" (cannot call it otherwise) we had back then - but for various reason either one or the other didn't have the time for it yet, and after some point I thought it's better if I just leave it burried.
	King Imp at 2008-01-12 12:06 wrote:
	I'd just like to add one more thing. For those of you who are defending the way things were done (I think that may be two of you), do you think that the issue with the map editor is because there weren't map makers to give feedback? If so, you are so far off it's not even funny. You do NOT have to be a map maker to see that as soon as you run the editor that there are problems. Between the slow loading, the ridiculous requirement to understand coding for scripts, the lack of major options, the inexplicable removing of stuff every time a new patch was released, etc., you would have to be blind to miss this stuff and it was mentioned numerous times by many people. But, apparantly since it wasn't mentioned by someone in this little group of Fabrice's, then apparently these problems didn't actually exist. Yeah, I see how the group speaks for the whole now. Oh, and to answer Zam from earlier, no I was never asked to be part of that group. I was one of those who was too outspoken and I'm sure they didn't want any of that in that group. Heaven forbid anything actually be criticized.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 12:06 wrote:
	Then how do you know that a site owner worries more about the quality of the game than the quality of his/her site? A chained dog isn't necessarily more loyal than a free dog. Everyone can worry about the quality of the game as much as they like, but the task of "that group" - and as members of "that group" the task of the site owners - is not "worrying about quality". First and foremost this responsibility is the producer's and designer's and not to be heaped onto anyone's shoulders who isn't paid for anything and just offer their support. If you think "that group" is somehow in this role you just misunderstood something or read something into it which isn't there. There are other groups responsible for quality that you can find in the credits.
	jeff at 2008-01-12 11:52 wrote:
	That is not so for the editor, though. Clearly, practically EVERY map-maker is part of a community, simply because maps have to be published to be played, they have to be tested, there has to be feedback and so on. Moreover, map-making not only is an art, but a craft as well, and the editor is a TOOL more than everything else, so map-makers are giving opinions as crafter on their tool. JJ, you and I have been on the opposite side of the fence many times, but here you hit the nail very squarely on the head. The editor is nothing more than a tool. I do not want to get into the H-IV vs. H-V better game thing because that is not the point here, but the point is I and many others can use the H-IV tool and not the H-V tool. My anger, venom or uncompromising position here and elsewhere is fueled by the disappointment that a user friendly editor is not now or ever been a priority. I still find it impossible to believe that UBI put a person in charge of the game’s development, someone who professed (i.e. Fabrice) to know the history and what the fans in general enjoy and expected in a heroes game and so completely miss the mark on the editor. Again I do not mean to transmit any anger, but my utter disappointment. I agree that my type of maps are not suited to H-V and that influenced my overall enjoyment of H-V, but I still would have loved to experiment with that editor with all its power, but I needed it to be based on a menu driven system similar to H-IV.
	Zamolxis at 2008-01-12 11:50 wrote:
	"If it is important that they won't move away within a year, I would recommend using heavy stone statues instead of live people." LOL "What is actually needed are skills/abilities to read regularly discussion boards, analyze info, prioritize things and, finally, be able to discuss, compromise and propose solutions." QFE "Community board/ news site owners can surely be in touch with the developer, but they are more into the opposite: getting official information to him/herself (and the community reading their sites) as fast as possible. I am afraid that even the members of "that group" who do not own a site/news page are much more into getting the unpublished info before anyone else than forwarding the info from everyone else upwards. Personal gain vs work for community so to say." So true and so sad. But you cannot judge the people for that. Being too critical there it's risky, and too much dedication only ends up in frustration as only out of 5% of your work something eventually comes up.
	Pitsu at 2008-01-12 11:45 wrote:
	A bit too much polemics here, Pitsu. Not moving away is not quite the same as not losing interest (because, for example, another game may be published that someone may change to). ----------- Then how do you know that a site owner worries more about the quality of the game than the quality of his/her site? A chained dog isn't necessarily more loyal than a free dog. Aren't you forgetting here that they are under obligation NOT to publish confidential information? ------------ Beside confidential info such communications allow to arrange question/answer sessions, prepare your site for major announcements, get data for "fan manuals" to update these simultaneously with new patches. This is what some people deliver from developer to player. And this data flow is what i meant and which is probably organized OK currently.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 11:42 wrote:
	I think JJ does not really get what I meant with "the best of the best". ...and so one...... This is actually a lot more blah-blah-blah as I'm used to meanwhile, and I like to make one thing perfectly clear here: if something IS utterly foolish then it's not an insult to call it so. Having said this, your last post adds more foolishness: nowhere do I throw responsibility for anything at Nival - I was just commenting on the influence of "that group" when I said Nival is the designer, period In fact, if you read carefully, you'll find, that I blame everyone for the somehow suboptimal editor, and that includes Nival, Ubisoft and "that group" including myself, for various and varying reasons. Now, I'm sure that those of us who do indeed work in big companies have seen the difference between loyal, able and dependable people who support the team and those who think they always know better, who have their own agenda and who in general are envious of those who get more money for what they deem to be the same work, have more say with the projects and seem to be generally and undeservedly in a better position...
	Zamolxis at 2008-01-12 11:18 wrote:
	I think JJ does not really get what I meant with "the best of the best". It doesn't have much to do with the H1-4 thing he mentioned. But I guess I shouldn't bother explaining, because he keeps reading what he wants in my posts since we know each other. And when he doesn't have enough arguments, he fills his posts with insults (see the "utterly foolish" label put on MistWeaver's and my posts). Regarding the 'game designer' story, it comes as no suprise for me that JJ - member of what we could call "Ubi's selected elite group" - tries to throw the responsibility for all that went wrong at Nival (whom he was actually very much defending back in 2005-2006). Nival might be responsible for copying too much from Warhammer, for being lazy in finishing jobs in time or stubborn in accepting community suggestions. But that's not what the game is all about. So make no mistake: the crapy storyline, the bad voice acting, a good part of the game concepts and many other elements are still Ubisoft. On top of that, selecting Nival, and the way the whole project was managed, is also Ubisoft's responsibility. I'm sure those of us who work in big companies, especially in management (or close to), have already seen the difference between a good manager and a bad one. A good manager can have the job done properly with whomever people he/she has under. Unexpected problems may appear on the way, but if the project was well thought and proactively followed step by step, the people properly selected, motivated, followed (and, in extreme cases, yes - also replaced), then there's not much that can go wrong. But I guess Ubisoft were often too soft to handle Nival's arrogance. And it is us who kinda payed the price. Not only those who still don't have a game they can enjoy, in spite of all the efforts and dedication from the beta. But also the others who, instead of just playing and enjoying friendly chats with us during multiplayer H5 games, they keep fighting us for 2 years on forums, trying to proove that the game is "good enough", that we have a "problem" for not liking one or another thing, and so on. Sometimes I get the feeling some people think that enjoying a game is only a matter of good marketing, so they keep trying to sell us their ideas.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 10:54 wrote:
	I'll give you ONE reason why they are in (even though there are a couple more): since they manage those sites you can expect them not to quit the game and their hobby next week, so they will be there next year as well. ------------------ If it is important that they won't move away within a year, I would recommend using heavy stone statues instead of live people. A bit too much polemics here, Pitsu. Not moving away is not quite the same as not losing interest (because, for example, another game may be published that someone may change to). Community board/ news site owners can surely be in touch with the developer, but they are more into the opposite: getting official information to him/herself (and the community reading their sites) as fast as possible. Aren't you forgetting here that they are under obligation NOT to publish confidential information?
	Pitsu at 2008-01-12 10:29 wrote:
	I'll give you ONE reason why they are in (even though there are a couple more): since they manage those sites you can expect them not to quit the game and their hobby next week, so they will be there next year as well. ------------------ If it is important that they won't move away within a year, I would recommend using heavy stone statues instead of live people. What is actually needed are skills/abilities to read regularly discussion boards, analyze info, prioritize things and, finally, be able to discuss, compromise and propose solutions. Community board/ news site owners can surely be in touch with the developer, but they are more into the opposite: getting official information to him/herself (and the community reading their sites) as fast as possible. I am afraid that even the members of "that group" who do not own a site/news page are much more into getting the unpublished info before anyone else than forwarding the info from everyone else upwards. Personal gain vs work for community so to say. PS. Sure, the lack of Editor feedback is also my fault, since years ago I had some contacts. Then gave up on several reasons.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 10:05 wrote:
	The next utterly foolish statement. Not even within Nival all design decisions are unanimous. The producing company will of course try to make sure that the strategic goals are reached, but that doesn't very often interfere with decisions on the DESIGN level. It may have consequences for the priority list, though. With a view on the editor I'd like to point out that Etherlords 2 came without an editor and never got one after it was published, greatly diminishing the game value...
	MistWeaver at 2008-01-12 09:19 wrote:
	>>Make no mistake: the game designer is NIVAL. Period. Sure, until they do exactly what UBI wants. There is a nice postmortem of developing process of H5.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 08:48 wrote:
	You shouldn't jump to conclusions. Look at this quote from Zam: "The problem with that group... is that it doesn't have as main and overriding selection criteria "the best of the best"..." While this is a true statement in a certain sense it is also utterly foolish. "The best of the best"? Who is that supposed to be? For HoMM 1? For Homm 2? For HoMM 3? For HoMM 4? And isn't that completely irrelevant, since we are dealing with H5? However, the biggest mistake here is a completely overblown sense of importance that statement comes with for "that group". It simply conveys a wrong impression of what the function of "that group" is. Make no mistake: the game designer is NIVAL. Period. Second, if you look into the Homm5 credits you'll find the testers as well: a Romania-based group of dedicated old Homm fans led by Liviu Galateanu who do nothing else except testing and they do find such intriguing bugs like the effect the Vampirism spell had on a Phantom (and who ins his right mind would do something like that, but you may just try it). Moreover they have a say in all balancing questions, but of course Nival has the LAST say here - which is as it should be because they are the designers. Third, there is the producing side - or Ubisoft -, and the producing side tries to keep in touch with the "common folks who actually buy and play the game", which is where "that group" enters the picture. I'll give you ONE reason why they are in (even though there are a couple more): since they manage those sites you can expect them not to quit the game and their hobby next week, so they will be there next year as well.
	Moragauth at 2008-01-12 08:06 wrote:
	"The whole "community leaders" thing still irks me. I'm sorry, but when did running a Heroes site become synonymous with being the be all/end all of Heroes knowledge?" QFT.
	Jolly Joker at 2008-01-12 06:10 wrote:
	Aside of the fact that time seems to have strange effects on memories certain posts here are a bit beside the point - and I might add, as usual. The reason is simple, and I'm going to explain it. The community leader thing simply is not applicable for all questions pertaining the editor (and not being able to clearly see this is a blame virtually everyone with responsibility has to take): concerning the PLAYERS the communities are only a very small part of all the players and buyers in the world, therefore you have to take all GAME threads, discussions and suggestions with more than only one grain of salt, because those gamers active here are simply only the most vocal with a clear view on what they and only they like. That's why an approach to keep the din of battle out, so to speak, and filter things makes sense. That is not so for the editor, though. Clearly, practically EVERY map-maker is part of a community, simply because maps have to be published to be played, they have to be tested, there has to be feedback and so on. Moreover, map-making not only is an art, but a craft as well, and the editor is a TOOL more than everything else, so map-makers are giving opinions as crafter on their tool. That, of course, means that editor-threads ARE representative which in terms mean they can be taken with much less salt. Practically spoken, no "community leader" is needed for anything (no condensing of opinion necessary), but IF for whatever purpose one was wished for, it would have to be necessarily one who did maps his- or herself AND had a good idea of what makes sense to have in the editor with a view on what the game can reasonably deliver, and here I don't see so many people who can actually do that - which means it makes more sense for the actual game and editor designers to take a look at every opinion at a certain point. I would even go so far and say that for the map editor after 3 months or so a poll in the map-makers' guilds might have been made which would have solved the input question (which is of course not possible for the game as such). INSTEAD the same process as for the game as such was used at that time (late summer 06; patch 1.3) for the editor debugging and a bit later for a general streamlining process (patch 1.4), probably a mistake. That mistake is the direct consequence of underestimating the complexity of the editor as such and the map-making process, which is a lot more difficult to verify than game aspects (for which you have cheat codes at that).
	Muszka at 2008-01-12 00:44 wrote:
	Wow... that's some long post there SC. Kinda like some of mine couple of years ago (which FC was using as argument for ignoring my feedback back then...). Well, let’s try one of my own. ;) ... Well, it became long, but also a good one, and beside that I agree with most of it, it reminds me of a part of an interview with a chief developer, seen a few years ago. The developer talked about a case, when they were to hire a new developer. The choise was between two candidates, one with excelent "papers", while the other was a fanatic gamer with no or not so good diplome. On the practical part, they were somewhere equal. Finally they had chosen the gamer, because he'll put his soul in the work, and for him it's not just any job, but it's THE job. Now that isn't one thing that what all should or at least could do. In no way. But at least for a game with such past they should have someone who cares for it, and for the older fans.
	Zamolxis at 2008-01-12 00:13 wrote:
	Wow... that's some long post there SC. Kinda like some of mine couple of years ago (which FC was using as argument for ignoring my feedback back then...). Well, let’s try one of my own. ;) The problem with that group - as I see below we start disclosing stuff - is that it doesn't have as main and overriding selection criteria "the best of the best". That actually becomes a minor one, as overridden by the other two: either site admins or important community members which are not uncomfortable to have around. So the group becomes in the end not very useful. Those most displeased with H5 are not there to give the needed feedback. Site admins cannot say much to not fall in disgrace. The others cannot because they can be very easily asked to leave. So many are left with the choice between being yes-men supporters or closing their eyes from time to time. But that does have an impact on the quality of their feedback as well, due to the loss of motivation. I beg the members of the group to not take the following the wrong way, as at least on my side I like to still consider them as friends. But I cannot consider them as "community leaders" for at least 2 reasons: Firstly because a good part of the community does not like H5 - or at least does not like the way Ubival handled the project from many points of view - and practically they are not represented in that group (I don't count those who share the opinion, but are afraid to state it clear enough to make their voice heard). If people like King Imp or Kareeah would have been there, I would have felt represented, but I have serious doubts about Fabrice ever inviting them for example. Secondly , is their approach/understanding of the concept of “community leaders”. When I joined the mentioned group, I stopped being the Zam from the beta, who was fighting against the inquisitor, gore, half-naked chicks and so on in the game (as many of you might remember). And I refocused on issues that I knew were important for a larger part of the community: the bad story & character building, the voice acting, major bugs, balance, the hideous Treant, missing major improvements (RMG, map editor, hall of fame) etc. But suddenly I found myself almost alone in this position. When I tried to say sth, I was replied with sth like “who are we to act as community representatives” and “even here we cannot be anything but ourselves”. And I guess everybody shared that opinion, as noone took my side in the discussion. On top of the above, Fabrice does not only need to learn to accept real negative feedback (as harsh as that may be). In order to have an “elite team” from the community side, he has to be able to match them with a really professional team on Ubival’s side. But after 2 years of wasted creative effort on community’s side, treated mainly with (insulting at times) ignorance on the other side, what would still motivate people? Who would still bother to properly scan the forums for of the best and most original ideas, when they all know only 10% will be considered, only 1% finally implemented, and even that maybe not as initially intended or coming with a bug?
	Muszka at 2008-01-12 00:13 wrote:
	Fabrice DOES read forums. However he also listens to feedback that we gather from forums and from gaming as well. Somehow I think that some people think he ignores EVERYTHING except for what gets filtered through us. Totally wrong. If he does read forums, he must have notiefied, the editor problems, because nearly in any major thread there are sentences concerning the editor, at least here at the RT. And though I don't go to other forums, I hardy doubt, that only people at RT have editor problems. I agree with you in that it's impossible to fit to everyone's taste, and to solve all the problems, but noone can deny that the editor is the greates of all, it was requested from the beginning, but still nothing. I agree that too, if he contacts a fan site, he gets bombed with irrelevant questions, and for one post of his come 10 replays, but GOW gave an adaptable cure for this problem. Also the Bioware example is good one. I agree also, that people can't spend all of their time at forums. It's not like in school, when duty endet at 2 pm. But I adviced earlier that, they could hire someone who could be the "forum-guy" or the "contact", who would be paid to filter crap from fans and transmit solutions, advices, bug reports, requests from the seriouser people. Please don't get me wrong, I don't have anything with community leaders, I just agree with jeff that Fabrice and the team don't really care for the old fans, and they somehow tend to forget, that this game actually is nearly 15 years old and not it's not a brand new shooter, what I won't play next year. They are just lazy, and they chase money, but sometimes they do even that wrong.
	jeff at 2008-01-11 20:46 wrote:
	Very good point. That's probably what should've been done. Hindsight as they say is 20/20. I read through both of your posts and did not find a reasonable explanation for the sad state of the editor, nor for Fabrice’s comment on a lack of input. While some like the editor, the complaints and requests to make improvements have been from the beginning far too common to have been missed, they were ignored. Even the official forum is filled with posts that voice these same concerns. UBI only had to be willing to listen, they weren’t. From the beginning UBI has been selective in all aspects on the handling of this franchise, releasing some details of the development to some sites but not others, making fans search and translate their finds so the rest of us could be kept up to date. Marketing the best package through Amazon.UK only (the Deluxe I think it was) ignoring the entire NA continent, I am sure in their minds it made sense, but as a long time fan I found all of these moves insulting and even worse; I was made to feel we weren’t important. So don’t give me the line hindsight is 20/20, all they had to do was open their eyes and ears. He would have been better served to just say we are done with the editor, but don’t tell me or anyone else that input wasn’t given or available. In any case I am over it, as I am done with H-V, and I actually regret that as I did believe it had promise. Fabrice’s comments only reaffirm my decision to move on, I truly hope that he is not going to have anything to do with H-VI; it needs someone who can see and hear.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-11 15:40 wrote:
	quote from Grumpy Old Wizard: They wouldn't even have to look for a thread. They could send an email to site administrator or another staff member saying they want feedback on the map editor (or whatever else they want feedback on.) It gets posted on the news page and everybody who has something to say says it. They could then interact with the community through the thread to ask more questions or to say that they think this or that is a good idea that may be implemented. If they actually asked for input and interacted with the community they would get all the feedback they wanted as well as engendering good will with the community. An example of such interaction can be found on the Bioiware official site for NWN2 where developers visit the forums, ask and answer questions, and keep the community informed about such things as progress of patches. "end quote" -------------------------- Very good point. That's probably what should've been done. Hindsight as they say is 20/20.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-11 15:38 wrote:
	quote from King Imp: The whole "community leaders" thing still irks me. I'm sorry, but when did running a Heroes site become synonymous with being the be all/end all of Heroes knowledge? I think you (and many others) misunderstand the group I'm referring to. It's not just people who run fan-sites. It's also long time fans and players. The goal was to get extremely knowledgable heroes players from around the world with a wide variety of ages, nationalities and playing experience. Fabrice DOES read forums. However he also listens to feedback that we gather from forums and from gaming as well. Somehow I think that some people think he ignores EVERYTHING except for what gets filtered through us. Totally wrong. ----------------------------------- Quote from King Imp: I don't want to hear how it's more convienient to just get feedback from a select few. The "leaders" do not speak for the whole and it's been obvious through the whole process that many things were missed because of the way they gather info. Again, you're misunderstanding. He works with this small group so he can have more lengthy detailed discussions. If he were to attempt to do that on a fan forum, he'd get bombarded with innane questions that have nothing to do with what he's asking. Jeez, just go back and look at ANY one of his posts on the official forum. One sentence from him and you get 10+ pages of people wanting to grill him for information. Our group doesn't attempt to speak for the "masses". We give OUR opinions. We attempt to gather feedback from our forums. We don't filter out the bad comments or just twist things to suit OUR opinions. If we did that we'd not be helping him in any way. As for things getting "missed"....I again disagree. Just because some flaws/bugs have not been fixed yet doesn't mean we haven't notified him of them. There are LOTS of fixes we've suggested to be implemented but aren't yet. But then again, the patch process isn't finished yet either. Their priorities don't coincide with ours quite often. And a lot of those suggestions will simply get moved on to H6's plans. ------------------------------------------------ Quote from King Imp: Like another said here, is it really so hard to find a thread devoted to problems and gain your feedback that way? I sure have no problem finding the problems threads, but apparently those in charge do. That, or they just don't want to truly know how much needs to be fixed. No, it's not hard. And he (and others) have done that. But there are more problems than get listed on those threads. Also those threads don't list the details that de-buggers would need usually. Also, those threads don't usually give suggestions on ways to improve problems with the game. A large portion of those topics aren't as easy to find as a "bug thread". That's where we help. Gathering info from multiple sources and putting them together. Of course, this hasn't been happening on a regular basis for several months now due to the late stage of the games' development (it's basically over now). ------------------------------------------ Quote from Pitsu: And that makes one wonder whether the "community leaders" are worth such title or how the heck are the people chosen with whom Fabrice communicates. If a map editor question is asked, and no-one among "community leaders" bothers to look at the mapmaking forums of two major international forums, then you deserve a little electric shock to wake up. Yes, we dropped the ball on that one I'd say. I personally was out of contact quite a bit during that phase. But I think many of the others figured that someone more knowledgable about mapmaking would step forward. UT hasn't been heard from in some time (yes, he's in this group too). The other thing is the timing of it. Fabrice was asking questions about it while we had the beta version of it. There were numerous problems and we helped quite a bit. But I don't recall any later conversations AFTER TotE came out about the editor. But I'm not chatting with them 24/7 either. As for how they're chosen...well, the main administators for most fan sites are in there. And then we suggest others for admission. If we see a need (such as a map maker), we suggest someone. If we're needing someone fluent in a specific language, we suggest someone. If we see someone on the forums who's contributing valuable information/suggestions/bug fixes/etc...they usually get added too. But FC's goal is to keep the group small for easier in-depth conversation. As for the electro shock.....FIRE IT UP! :O)
	Muszka at 2008-01-11 13:53 wrote:
	Tim Duncan is a great NBA player :) For me it will always be a great mapmaker. :)
	Grumpy Old Wizard at 2008-01-11 13:01 wrote:
	Like another said here, is it really so hard to find a thread devoted to problems and gain your feedback that way? I sure have no problem finding the problems threads, but apparently those in charge do. That, or they just don't want to truly know how much needs to be fixed. They wouldn't even have to look for a thread. They could send an email to site administrator or another staff member saying they want feedback on the map editor (or whatever else they want feedback on.) It gets posted on the news page and everybody who has something to say says it. They could then interact with the community through the thread to ask more questions or to say that they think this or that is a good idea that may be implemented. If they actually asked for input and interacted with the community they would get all the feedback they wanted as well as engendering good will with the community. An example of such interaction can be found on the Bioiware official site for NWN2 where developers visit the forums, ask and answer questions, and keep the community informed about such things as progress of patches. GOW
	King Imp at 2008-01-11 11:22 wrote:
	The whole "community leaders" thing still irks me. I'm sorry, but when did running a Heroes site become synonymous with being the be all/end all of Heroes knowledge? I don't want to hear how it's more convienient to just get feedback from a select few. The "leaders" do not speak for the whole and it's been obvious through the whole process that many things were missed because of the way they gather info. Like another said here, is it really so hard to find a thread devoted to problems and gain your feedback that way? I sure have no problem finding the problems threads, but apparently those in charge do. That, or they just don't want to truly know how much needs to be fixed. And that makes one wonder whether the "community leaders" are worth such title or how the heck are the people chosen with whom Fabrice communicates. If a map editor question is asked, and no-one among "community leaders" bothers to look at the mapmaking forums of two major international forums, then you deserve a little electric shock to wake up. Couldn't have said it better myself.
	Ya5MieL at 2008-01-11 11:14 wrote:
	Tim Duncan is a great NBA player :) Anyway, since JJ said that UBI's priority is the release of Chinese version of the game to any patches, all this could take a while.
	Muszka at 2008-01-11 10:20 wrote:
	If he wants to know what fans would like to see, he should visit the official HV forum. And some community sites. It shouldn't be that hard to go to 5 sites and run about 2, 3 polls at each. :mad: I hope the greats Charlie Watkins and Tim Duncan decide to do so to and both of them are still around here so there is hope yet. Just my two cents: I don't know Charlie Watkins, but Timothy's map always have been among my favorites.
	Moragauth at 2008-01-11 07:50 wrote:
	If he wants to know what fans would like to see, he should visit the official HV forum.
	Grumpy Old Wizard at 2008-01-11 07:36 wrote:
	He had some dialog with numerous community leaders a few months back and was asking for SPECIFIC feedback on how to improve or change the editor. .... Not once was this thread (or the Heroes Community thread) mentioned. That was one of the biggest problems with that "chat". None of us were mapmakers really And that makes one wonder whether the "community leaders" are worth such title or how the heck are the people chosen with whom Fabrice communicates. If a map editor question is asked, and no-one among "community leaders" bothers to look at the mapmaking forums of two major international forums, then you deserve a little electric shock to wake up. BTW, what has happened to Ururam-Tururam, he was a leader of Polish community and a mapmaker? Yeah, as far as I know the mapmaking forum here is the most active English forum dedicated to mapmaking. Unfortunately UT didn't like HOMM5 much and posted on his website he wasn't going to make any maps for it although he left an out saying when the expansion came out (and 2 have) he might. But I haven't seen where he has posted anywhere in a long time. Click here to go to his website. UT is one of my favorite mapmakers so I hope he decides to make some. I hope the greats Charlie Watkins and Tim Duncan decide to do so to and both of them are still around here so there is hope yet. GOW
	Pitsu at 2008-01-11 05:01 wrote:
	He had some dialog with numerous community leaders a few months back and was asking for SPECIFIC feedback on how to improve or change the editor. .... Not once was this thread (or the Heroes Community thread) mentioned. That was one of the biggest problems with that "chat". None of us were mapmakers really And that makes one wonder whether the "community leaders" are worth such title or how the heck are the people chosen with whom Fabrice communicates. If a map editor question is asked, and no-one among "community leaders" bothers to look at the mapmaking forums of two major international forums, then you deserve a little electric shock to wake up. BTW, what has happened to Ururam-Tururam, he was a leader of Polish community and a mapmaker?
	Muszka at 2008-01-10 22:25 wrote:
	It would be really that hard for those developers to have one man in plus, who would keep in touch with fans and who would take care of the "feedback" issues? Though I don't know for the PC game developing market how it works, but I can see in the other marketings branches, that companies invest tons of money just in the evaluation of the market(e.g. cigarettes) After all, they would have bigger sales, and what is an employe's playment compared to that?
	Angelspit at 2008-01-10 21:33 wrote:
	I doubt that AS trawls the mapmaking forum either. I do, but I was hoping the developers would notice it by themselves (it doesn't take that long to retrieve info on fan forums, I do it all the time). And I was afraid such a thread would not make such a difference after all, sorry to say.
	Toejam at 2008-01-10 19:30 wrote:
	homm complete is great, even if i allready own all the Heroes games i still had to have it, a t-shirt,poster, tarrot cards, a BIG artbook ... and all for the price of 1 and a half game :) i love it
	Elvin at 2008-01-10 18:40 wrote:
	Regardless of the editor issue the rest is as good as we could get them. Allied maps and continued patching counts.
	jeff at 2008-01-10 16:37 wrote:
	Can we expect improvements in the map editor accessibility and usability? Sadly no. We have currently no plan to update the map editor. This might be reassessed at some time, but I didn't receive much feedback from the community on the topic at this time. He is either a moron which we assume he's not, or he is completely out of touch with the community, meaning he himself has never bothered to check. As far as I know CH never had a thread requesting input about specific changes. Regardless none of that is an excuse. Before H-5 was released they asked for community input, CH had a map editor thread, but it was never submitted, as I recall it was because UBI said no more input. Of course the other possibility is the community in general doesn't care about having a broad range of maps being created by fans. This to would be a bad omen for the future. For me it is too late, having discussed this with JJ in another thread it is now obvious H-V is not setup for my type of maps regardless of the editor. Which sadly moves me closer to an inevitable retirement from gaming.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-10 16:02 wrote:
	That was one of the biggest problems with that "chat". None of us were mapmakers really. We'd all messed around with it some (a few more than others) but he was asking the wrong group IMO. It's water under the bridge now but hopefully it'll make things run smoother with H6.
	Akul at 2008-01-10 15:51 wrote:
	Sir Charles... once again I totally agree with what you have told. There is nothing more to add.
	PhoenixReborn at 2008-01-10 15:49 wrote:
	I just read through that thread PR and I noticed the statement that you'll forward it to me so I can send it to Ubisoft. I kinda laughed at that one. It's true I did not follow through there...there wasn't much enthusiasm for creating the list at first and neither did the original source about them updating the editor seem too reliable. I had planned to ask sfidanza translate it into french for ubi. As you say it is too late now, but my point is that there certainly were good suggestions right from the start. I doubt that AS trawls the mapmaking forum either.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-10 15:29 wrote:
	I just read through that thread PR and I noticed the statement that you'll forward it to me so I can send it to Ubisoft. I kinda laughed at that one. First off, this is the first I've ever seen this thread. But then again, I've only been in the mapmaking forum once before. But also you should notice that I said that FC chatted with community leaders asking for feedback. Not once was this thread (or the Heroes Community thread) mentioned. I'm not even sure that FC is aware that it exists. That being said, there are still several things on these lists that would entail a LOT of work to incorporate. Sure, there are a few things that should be quick to fix and they "might" get addressed if FC is made aware of them. But as I said (and as he said quite plainly) it's probably much too late in the game to spend an extensive amount of time on something that isn't going to generate income OR become improved immensely. To get it to the stage that fans want it in would require a complete re-working of it or a scrapping of it and starting a new one. I just don't see that happening.
	PhoenixReborn at 2008-01-10 15:10 wrote:
	@ Sir Charles if you look here: http://www.celestialheavens.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7359 You'll find some very concrete suggestions in GOW's final post. Some of it is logical and some of it is ease of use stuff. That's a recent list, Vlaad at Heroes Community made a long list when the original editor came out.
	Sir Charles at 2008-01-10 15:04 wrote:
	Actually, the complaints here about the editor are very general. He had some dialog with numerous community leaders a few months back and was asking for SPECIFIC feedback on how to improve or change the editor. The feedback was VERY limited. In general it was mostly things along the lines of "it's not very user friendly", "it lags very badly" without any linking computer specs to determine the fault if any. My suggestion is for the multiple communities out there to generate SPECIFIC lists of what they would remove, add or alter from the current editor so it can be implemented into the H6 editor. Putting in a ton of man-hours at this late in the game for H5 just isn't a good use of their time and effort IMO. IMO the main problem with the H5 editor stems from the fact that they started with the actual game designing editor and then began removing, adding & changing features of THAT to create the in game editor. Making it user friendly and some of the other sweeping changes that fans clamor for would simply require a complete re-working of it from the bottom up. I simply don't see that happening without any income being generated from it in the foreseeable future. They're better off focusing on balance fixes and such for H5 and then looking towards H6.
	Angelspit at 2008-01-10 14:24 wrote:
	Fabrice: "I didn't receive much feedback from the community on the topic at this time." Maybe that's a translation error and by "retour" Fabrice meant "product returns" instead of feedback. Send your game boxes back to Ubisoft with a post-it with "Awful Editor" written on it. Just being a geeky translator here. :)
	HodgePodge at 2008-01-10 13:52 wrote:
	Even before I read any of the replies to Fabrice's comments, I was thinking: But did they fix the editor? Obvioulsy, every other fan feels the same way. Fabrice … Fix the @$^%&* Editor! :flame:
	JessieLC at 2008-01-10 13:22 wrote:
	Forget HOMM VI what about getting HOMM Complete to the US Market?????????If it s so great we would like to have a say!!!!!!!!!!
	King Imp at 2008-01-10 12:52 wrote:
	I'm sorry, but I gotta say this about the map editor answer. Fabrice: "I didn't receive much feedback from the community on the topic at this time." No offense, but that's bull! People have been screaming that the editor was crap and that it needed tons of work from the very beginning. This is just another case of they don't know how to make it any better, so they'll just move on.
	Wurtzel at 2008-01-10 08:23 wrote:
	I found his comments regarding the editor somewhat disappointing... Hopefully HOMM6 (if it gets going) will have a more user friendly editor. Edited on Thu, Jan 10 2008, 08:24 by Wurtzel

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