Of Necropolis and "unbeatableness"

[Banedon]

Necro and conflux should be out too, since those towns are unbeatable.

Many should recognize this - csarmi said this in another topic. Now I have to ask: why is Necropolis overpowered? Conflux, with 4x Phoenixes, is certainly imbalanced - but Necropolis?

[csarmi]

Cause skeletons have 32x growth :-)

[Banedon]

Explain. Skeletons are not Phoenixes - Phoenixes are lvl 7 units, and a difference of one on the battlefield can have some serious repercussions. Having 10 more Skeletons tend to mean nothing.

I know you mean Necromancy, but once I raised some 2000 Skeleton Warrios (I had Vidomina) but they all got crushed in two swipes from 30 Ancient Behemoths - don't see how Necromancy is overpowered. Alright, they diverted fire from my more important units, but I still don't see how Necromancy could lead to too powerful an advantage.

[Bandobras Took]

Because they're the only one of the original towns that poses a significant challenge to the Fortress.

In all seriousness, though, the effectiveness of necromancy depends on the size of the map and the creatures therein. I don't rate the Necromancers as overpowered, but they do have the strongest lineup of level 4-6 troops, overall. That can really help control the midgame.

[csarmi]

The problem is that you get way too many skeletons unless the map has specifically designed otherwise.
You'll have 2000 skeletons while your opponent has 10 behemoths, not 30. See now? You played that map too slow. Once you start to run out of food, you have to fight. And a powerstack that is unblindable and can kill any of the opposing stacks in one hit is very hard to counter.

[Bandobras Took]

Especially given the prevalence of Necromancy-enhancing artifacts. But it still takes a lot of creature stacks for the difference to become insurmountable. In the case of L to XL maps (and some M), you'd have to design against necromancy. But on most M and S maps, you'd have to design for necromancy to get that kind of an effect.

[SmokingBarrel]

Err...if thats the case, then how about Inferno with the demons?

Banedon is talking about Realm of Chaos, I think. Vulcanic was playing stronghold, and got 3rd turn behemoth. Whats the hold up in getting 30?

So...you are saying that necropolis is overpowered only in certain maps?

[Derek]

You don't need a huge amount of skeletons to make the stack scary for you opponent. If you have around 600-1000 skeletons in the second month, which is not beyond anyone's ability, I am quite sure nobody is going to send their level 7 units near that. Period. Also, considering that you may have a "wraith bomb" stack this could easily take the retal for the skel stack. Next thing you know you've got one wraith traded for a whole stack.

I don't know if the Necro is unbeatable, but they are certainly one of the best if the player is using Thant/Vidominia/Isra.

[Banedon]

Reply with quote
The problem is that you get way too many skeletons unless the map has specifically designed otherwise.
You'll have 2000 skeletons while your opponent has 10 behemoths, not 30. See now? You played that map too slow. Once you start to run out of food, you have to fight. And a powerstack that is unblindable and can kill any of the opposing stacks in one hit is very hard to counter.

Yeah, but how? In very many maps, you run out of food by week 2 - wherupon you have to take the fight to your opponent. Two problems. One, you will have to move forward, giving your opponent the chance to get an extra week's reinforcements. Two, Skeleton Warriors move sufficiently slowly that without distractions afforded by heavy supporting creatures, your opponent can simply shoot them all down.

Besides, it's very difficult to raise a huge Skeleton army. Even if you have a 100% conversion rate, you won't have more than 250 Skeleton Warriors at the start of week 3. It is a large amount, but give your opponent the extra week's reinforcements and I bet he will defeat it (especially since Skeleton Warriors move so slowly). If I have Rampart for example and 40 Grand Elves, I'd simply surround my Grand Elves with single Dwarf / Centaur Captain stacks and shoot the Skeleton Warriors to oblivion.

Another thing to consider. What if your opponent turtles up in his castle? This gives you the outright advantage of course, but he if he elects to use this strategy chances are he will build an important building soon (like Upg. Fire Lake) and wallop you.

In all seriousness, though, the effectiveness of necromancy depends on the size of the map and the creatures therein. I don't rate the Necromancers as overpowered, but they do have the strongest lineup of level 4-6 troops, overall. That can really help control the midgame.

True. I've found that when Necropolis starts using Dread Knights, they rule the game for a period. Too bad it takes some time to field Vampire Lords, Power Liches and Dread Knights

Banedon is talking about Realm of Chaos, I think. Vulcanic was playing stronghold, and got 3rd turn behemoth. Whats the hold up in getting 30?

Time?

But I should elaborate. In that game Realm of Chaos, we had 3 players and therefore diplomacy. The game went on for quite a few months, I recall. SmokingBarrel had Inferno (therefore he was just outside my land) and we found ourselves in a confrontation. I couldn't step out for fear he'd attack me, giving Vulcanic a rather free hand towards his 30 Ancient Behemoths.

You don't need a huge amount of skeletons to make the stack scary for you opponent. If you have around 600-1000 skeletons in the second month, which is not beyond anyone's ability, I am quite sure nobody is going to send their level 7 units near that. Period. Also, considering that you may have a "wraith bomb" stack this could easily take the retal for the skel stack. Next thing you know you've got one wraith traded for a whole stack.

Sure, but I suspect anyone who faced such a large Skeleton army would sit back and engage in ranged duels.

[Derek]

Sure, but I suspect anyone who faced such a large Skeleton army would sit back and engage in ranged duels.

Yeah, but then the power liches would certainly dominate there. It just seems as though there wouldn't be enough ranged power to make this dangerous. What kind of ranged units are we talking about here? Unless it is tower I don't think the Necro is going to lose here.

[Bandobras Took]

Sure, but I suspect anyone who faced such a large Skeleton army would sit back and engage in ranged duels.

Yeah, but then the power liches would certainly dominate there. It just seems as though there wouldn't be enough ranged power to make this dangerous. What kind of ranged units are we talking about here? Unless it is tower I don't think the Necro is going to lose here.

The Castle has two strong ranged stacks to Necro's one, and their Melee units are fairly tough. A well-run Castle can beat the Necropolis at the ranged game.

[SmokingBarrel]

Excuse me? Vulcanic was ambushed and lost 6 ancient behemoths or so. He didn't even bother using diplomacy, and, by building up 2k skeletons that also takes a lot of time.

I just don't get it. How are you going to end up with that many skeletons? After battles you only raise about 10, 20 skeletons(If it's a big army). So how are you going to amass that army of skeletons?

[Banedon]

Yeah, but then the power liches would certainly dominate there. It just seems as though there wouldn't be enough ranged power to make this dangerous. What kind of ranged units are we talking about here? Unless it is tower I don't think the Necro is going to lose here.

Well there are other things. Power Liches are fragile and extremely valuable. They're also difficult to deploy. I believe very many races can take on Necropolis at the Ranged game and score quite well:

CASTLE: Like Bandobras Took said.
RAMPART: Grand Elves are very powerful, and Gold Dragons can perform hit-and-runs on the Power Liches.
TOWER: Nothing here - Tower has the most powerful Ranged units in the game.
DUNGEON: Black Dragons can hit-and-run and the Warlock can cast some powerful DD on the Power Liches.
STRONGHOLD: Unfortunate. Stronghold has the stronger ranged unit in Cylops Kings, but Stronghold won't often get them. Stronghold will probably try to engage Necropolis in melee, banking on higher stats and brute force.
FORTRESS: Fortress has it tough. Bandobras Took can probably tell you a lot more about Fortress vs. Necropolis though...
INFERNO: With two very fast units to block the Power Liches, Inferno should not have a problem.
CONFLUX: With two very powerful ranged stacks as well as the king of hit-and-run in Phoenixes, Conflux has no problems.

Excuse me? Vulcanic was ambushed and lost 6 ancient behemoths or so. He didn't even bother using diplomacy, and, by building up 2k skeletons that also takes a lot of time.

He lost nine Ancient Bears (:D) and he didn't use Diplomacy. I didn't mean Diplomacy the skill; I meant diplomacy as in interaction with fellow human players.

[csarmi]

Demon summoning is limited by the hp of troops you can recruit.
While necromancy (and diplomacy) is only limited by the amount of creatures on the map. That's what makes it so hard to balance them.

[Nucleon]

Nucleon don't think Necropolises are un-beatable. He don't mind playing against them.

At the start of of a game, they're among the most fragile armies. If you can put your hand around the Necromancer's scrawny necks in the first month, they're pretty much powerless. After that, it depends on the lenght of the map, the wandering creatures therein, and the artefacts that are going to be found.

The ideal map for Necropolis is a medium map, with well-separated players and lots of minor, wandering monsters. The further you get away from these conditions, the less Necropolis shines.

Animas (Golems, elementals, gargoyles) are best to deal with the Necropolis' nastier sides; Vampiric drain, morale and insignificant "Death Ripple" spell. Any ranged troop is second best. Forteresses are the main dish of the Necropolis, wherein their Mighty Gorgons becomes a mere regular troop instead of the scourge they usually are.

Nucleon would rather say that they're strategically easy to play. It is a foolproof town, like Castle. He has yet to see a novel way to play it, thus making it a most previsible faction.

[Pol]

The most powerfull of Necropolis are Dread Knights and not Skeletons, especially in equal numbers.

The big stacks of the Skeletons are easily to be destroyed but you will need to counter them with two armies. The first one will make the other forces irrelevant, for the second you will already know if the enemy has the teleport and such adequate magic skills and that it will kick your ass anyway...

IMHO playing with Necropolis is speciall but not overpowered, in contradiction to the Conflux.

And playing for the Castle is the easiest one in the whole HommIII. known world.

[DaemianLucifer]

Conflux is not overpowered.It is special,if you want.Sure,it is cheap and fast and gets magical skills on a plate,but it is very connected and weak so that compensates.

[Pol]

Way hard to prove it in MP

[DaemianLucifer]

Way hard to prove it in MP

Dont know that,but I played hot seat and had no complaints.

[Nucleon]

Conflux is not overpowered.It is special,if you want.Sure,it is cheap and fast and gets magical skills on a plate,but it is very connected and weak so that compensates.

Nucleon thinks that Conflux is not overpowerful, just broken.

It is the only town whose entire, upgraded production outweights the total gold it can muster. (Yes, you can still sell the 3 extra mercuries you've got left, thought).

It was supposed the faction with only middle-lvl troops. It turned out to be the faction with no low-lvl troops. WoG sure helps by generally limiting to Phoenix production to 3, with castle. The town thus becomes more manageable.

Nucleon would have go further; He would have made the Storms into flyers, and the Energies into shooters instead, as well as giving each upgraded elemental immunity to their own magic types, both detrimental and beneficial.

In the image of the town, the Conflux heroes are also pretty favourless, althought they sure do not lack in competence. What's the use of being a Water Elementalist if you can master all four type of magic? How come a Lacus or a Kalt can ever master Fire magic? They're Water elementals, for crying out loud.

Their Grail is also hopelessy advantaged.