Might and Magic X

The role-playing games (I-X) that started it all and the various spin-offs (including Dark Messiah).
magritte2
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Unread postby magritte2 » 03 Mar 2014, 02:38

Well, suppose I went with a party like Crusader//Druid/Scout/Barbarian, which superficially looks like it ought to be fairly balanced. Are there any obvious problems? Anything I should be looking to pick up as far as skills/spells as quickly as possible?

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Unread postby Tress » 03 Mar 2014, 08:16

Well, suppose I went with a party like Crusader//Druid/Scout/Barbarian, which superficially looks like it ought to be fairly balanced. Are there any obvious problems? Anything I should be looking to pick up as far as skills/spells as quickly as possible?
Aside of lack of dark magic, which causes some problems(of debatable severity) like lack of whispering shadows and purge, there seems to be lack of heavy magic offense. Team seems to be extremelly meelee heavy and since many mobs are vunerable to two schools at best, going in with single pure caster like druid(who probably will work as healer/ support spell caster ) may cause some problems. I would probably switch scout for feee mage or shaman so there is bigger versatility of spells available. Druid doesn't make very good offensive caster due to lack of deep magic focus, and multitasking scout towards ranged/melee/caster will make him sub par due to lack of stat points.

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Unread postby magritte2 » 04 Mar 2014, 04:50

Thanks. I had read that enemies often appeared right next to you, so I was thinking that having a strong melee party might be desirable. The game doesn't really give you much information to work with in building a party and the manual doesn't even have all the classes in it.

One thing I wondered about was whether I should try and have all four races since they have different resistances, but I don't know how much difference 10 resistance makes.

So you think Free Mage/Crusader/Druid/Barbarian would be a better party?

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Unread postby Tress » 04 Mar 2014, 06:34

magritte2 wrote:Thanks. I had read that enemies often appeared right next to you, so I was thinking that having a strong melee party might be desirable. The game doesn't really give you much information to work with in building a party and the manual doesn't even have all the classes in it.

One thing I wondered about was whether I should try and have all four races since they have different resistances, but I don't know how much difference 10 resistance makes.

So you think Free Mage/Crusader/Druid/Barbarian would be a better party?
Yes game really pretty much forces figure stuff out for your self (it's part of charm this game have, but sometimes it's frustrating and discourages taking any chances)
That's true. Ranged combat doesn't play as heavy role as it used to in mm6-8 or games like wizardry, even more since you can't shoot on back rows. Problem with melee heavy is that no doubt you will encounter not only magic resistant creatures but also ones with high armor class, heavy block chances and various other nasty abilities that discourage melee combat.(like vengeance), and at that point you will wish to have high versatility of attacking abilities to exploit weakness. For example my choice to never touch fire magic for my team made most encounters with naga enemies much more harder than they probably needed to, specially meelee ones that blocked most of my attacks and had high AP.
Suggested party is much more well rounded in my opinion. I would probably use slightly different class selection(like I would likely prefer blade dancer but it is more of a personal preference(difference in this case isn't as big).

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Unread postby Marzhin » 04 Mar 2014, 08:54

The patch made ranged combat a bit more useful by the way.

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Unread postby magritte2 » 08 Mar 2014, 20:44

Well, I thought I was doing well but I'm now level 11 and I'm hopelessly stuck in the Elemental Forge. I lost one of my party members fighting the Earth Elemental, I'm out of supplies and running low on mana potions so I really need to go back to New Sorpigal but I can't get out. The way I came in on level 3 has vanished, and I can't use the exit on level 2 without the blessing of Shalassa. There may be an exit on levels 4 or 5 but I haven't been up there and there's no way I'd survive. Is there a secret way out or do I have to start the entire dungeon over again?

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Unread postby Phobos » 08 Mar 2014, 21:52

magritte2 wrote:Well, I thought I was doing well but I'm now level 11 and I'm hopelessly stuck in the Elemental Forge. I lost one of my party members fighting the Earth Elemental, I'm out of supplies and running low on mana potions so I really need to go back to New Sorpigal but I can't get out. The way I came in on level 3 has vanished, and I can't use the exit on level 2 without the blessing of Shalassa. There may be an exit on levels 4 or 5 but I haven't been up there and there's no way I'd survive. Is there a secret way out or do I have to start the entire dungeon over again?
You should be able to backtrack and get out the same way you came from. Maybe you overlooked something? If you can't go back, that sounds like a bug to me.

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Unread postby magritte2 » 09 Mar 2014, 01:06

Oh silly me. I didn't realize that Level 4 was the outside rather than another dungeon level. I seem to have completed the quest but I'm puzzled that there were so many doors and things inside that I couldn't open. I guess I'm going to have to come back to this place later?

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Unread postby Variol » 09 Mar 2014, 09:58

Yes, you will be back in there to get the blessings of the various elemental lords. That's how you'll be able to walk on water, use teleporters etc.

I'm using 4 Crusaders right now. I hope the devs do something about game balance. The older M&M's could be played with any race/class of party, bu this one is hard, or impossible to finish with some parties.
I just had 4 Dwarf Shield Guard but could not get past the final boss with them.

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Unread postby Tress » 10 Mar 2014, 08:17

I'm using 4 Crusaders right now. I hope the devs do something about game balance. The older M&M's could be played with any race/class of party, bu this one is hard, or impossible to finish with some parties.
MM7 -8 was possible with any class combination only because of real time movment possibility/line of sight abuse (other game engine specific feature) where you could basically never get hit. Under strict board game rule type rules where you couldn't dodge bullets and abuse save/load during fight, it would be EXTREMELY hard to finish game with every party configuration. (well there would be some workarounds but those would be overpowered spell abuse, which shouldn't be in game in first place.)
Also if I remember correctly , finishing older MM's (3-5) would hardly be possible with every party due to sheer need for some spells. which would block progress unless you have them.
Game is never meant to be played by crippled party anyway. If game could be easily finished by any crippled build there is something wrong with game design or difficulty.

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Unread postby Kalah » 10 Mar 2014, 11:29

As this is supposed to be a party-based game, wherein you combine the qualities of different party members, I don't think making any effort in making it easy to complete with any party should be a priority. Although I would not set up a main story where you need one specific type of spell to complete the game (thereby making it compulsory to use a specific hero type), the game just isn't supposed to work well with parties consisting of the same hero type.
In War: Resolution, In Defeat: Defiance, In Victory: Magnanimity, In Peace: Goodwill.

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Unread postby Tress » 10 Mar 2014, 11:58

What I more meant is that as party game, it is by design supposed to have member to fill various roles. As more visible example are modern MMO's . For example unless you outlevel instance there is no way to play by skipping archetypes of tank and healer. There are always more than one way to tank or heal but it's not like you are supposed to do so(unless difficulty is tuned way too low, or you out gear severely) with any tank or healer at all.(not that I haven't done that in wow in my time :P, but it was much harder than it supposed to be). Modern rpg (mmx) including dont really have compulsory need for some classes like classic RPG's used to have. For example I think mm4-5 is not doable without jump, levitate,teleport spells (well you can always remake party mid game to alleviate that in some way ,also sure there is "where to" mirror but you are not supposed to know those codes, for fair game). Or if we pick some other brands of game I think Eye of beholder series game are not really finish able without priest and mage in party(there are recruit able ones but there are alot of ways to cause game become unwinable (and that will be without you have broken thread of prophecy warning))

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Unread postby tolich » 10 Mar 2014, 19:28

Tress wrote:finishing older MM's (3-5) would hardly be possible with every party due to sheer need for some spells. which would block progress unless you have them.
No duh, I've finished WoX with Robber/Ranger team, and heard of solo Ranger. Coins, scrolls, and other magic items totally help.

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Unread postby phamlongtuan » 12 Mar 2014, 11:56

Tress wrote:
Well, suppose I went with a party like Crusader//Druid/Scout/Barbarian, which superficially looks like it ought to be fairly balanced. Are there any obvious problems? Anything I should be looking to pick up as far as skills/spells as quickly as possible?
Aside of lack of dark magic, which causes some problems(of debatable severity) like lack of whispering shadows and purge, there seems to be lack of heavy magic offense. Team seems to be extremelly meelee heavy and since many mobs are vunerable to two schools at best, going in with single pure caster like druid(who probably will work as healer/ support spell caster ) may cause some problems. I would probably switch scout for feee mage or shaman so there is bigger versatility of spells available. Druid doesn't make very good offensive caster due to lack of deep magic focus, and multitasking scout towards ranged/melee/caster will make him sub par due to lack of stat points.
You are wrong for druid role, i have one druid with nearly 600 mana, i only need to pump him with as many + water magic as possible and in level 50 of water magic. Liquid membrane from him make even deadliest attack like a joke. Tsunami (sometimes deal 1000 damage with critical) from him will keep push enemy away and away thus they deal close to zero damage to my party.

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Unread postby Tress » 12 Mar 2014, 12:41

You are wrong for druid role, i have one druid with nearly 600 mana, i only need to pump him with as many + water magic as possible and in level 50 of water magic. Liquid membrane from him make even deadliest attack like a joke. Tsunami (sometimes deal 1000 damage with critical) from him will keep push enemy away and away thus they deal close to zero damage to my party.
Druid can nuke but he is weakest of all magic casters(mage and priest can gm focus, and shaman have innate crit increase, which leaves druid behind in damage numbers) in terms of assault spells. Sure my druid used tsunami at the end and was quite effective but he still have weakest assault capabilities.
First of all, I already mentioned that he will likely be support role(liquid membrane, stone skin, etc) which will consume first few rounds of combat , leaving party fend of with melee attacks without second caster. Also membrane is bugged , it absorbs more than it is supposed to, besides shaman can cast it as well.
Second and main problem with statement that
Tsunami (sometimes deal 1000 damage with critical)
is that it will deal 1300 for other classes with similar caliber spells, under similar builds.

I dont say that druid is bad class but as assault caster it is behind the other 3.

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Unread postby phamlongtuan » 12 Mar 2014, 14:34

Tress wrote:
You are wrong for druid role, i have one druid with nearly 600 mana, i only need to pump him with as many + water magic as possible and in level 50 of water magic. Liquid membrane from him make even deadliest attack like a joke. Tsunami (sometimes deal 1000 damage with critical) from him will keep push enemy away and away thus they deal close to zero damage to my party.
Druid can nuke but he is weakest of all magic casters(mage and priest can gm focus, and shaman have innate crit increase, which leaves druid behind in damage numbers) in terms of assault spells. Sure my druid used tsunami at the end and was quite effective but he still have weakest assault capabilities.
First of all, I already mentioned that he will likely be support role(liquid membrane, stone skin, etc) which will consume first few rounds of combat , leaving party fend of with melee attacks without second caster. Also membrane is bugged , it absorbs more than it is supposed to, besides shaman can cast it as well.
Second and main problem with statement that
Tsunami (sometimes deal 1000 damage with critical)
is that it will deal 1300 for other classes with similar caliber spells, under similar builds.

I dont say that druid is bad class but as assault caster it is behind the other 3.
I'm pretty sure that Druid make more valuable class in late game, of course if we exploit as many buffs as possible it will make this game so easy. My points are:

- Druid has huge mana pool, keep using strongest spell over and over
- My build will make him both damage dealer (pump + water magic) and support caster as well.
- Tsunami is AOE and has push back feature so in practical Druid will combo damage with other character (that is my point)

For example: I create a poison cloud in front of my party, when mob get in, they get poisoned, after that i push them back few grids, they keep coming and their HP keep being drained. When they get close, mellee does damage and they be pushed back again. It very safe tactical even with low HP team.

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Unread postby magritte2 » 14 Mar 2014, 23:20

Does Earth Ward work against poison--not poison spray spells but ordinary poison? If not, what are my options for protection? I'm in the 2nd level of the lost city and in this ambush I'm getting a couple of characters poisoned every round and even running regeneration, it's really difficult to make any headway.

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Unread postby Variol » 19 Mar 2014, 10:11

Kalah wrote:As this is supposed to be a party-based game, wherein you combine the qualities of different party members, I don't think making any effort in making it easy to complete with any party should be a priority. Although I would not set up a main story where you need one specific type of spell to complete the game (thereby making it compulsory to use a specific hero type), the game just isn't supposed to work well with parties consisting of the same hero type.
Well, I don't recall seeing any "warnings" in the character creation screens to say, "hey, you must have XXX class to get through the game". If that was the case, why give us 12 party types? And why both to put scrolls and potions into the game if the party can supply all of those needs????
Completely stupid and not well thought out on their part.

My 4 Warmongers are "the" best party I have had, but I cannot see in some dungeons and scrolls like light are too hard to find. Very frustrating.

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Unread postby Tress » 19 Mar 2014, 10:43

Well, I don't recall seeing any "warnings" in the character creation screens to say, "hey, you must have XXX class to get through the game". If that was the case, why give us 12 party types? And why both to put scrolls and potions into the game if the party can supply all of those needs????
Completely stupid and not well thought out on their part.
And you don't, but deliberately gimping party will make some fights extremely challenging(if possible). Same could be said for nearly any game with party configuration, that has at least some decent difficulty. If that wouldn't be the case, then game difficulty would be completely messed up and with half decent party you would steam roll. As I mentioned previously there are nearly no such hard coded game stopping encounters as classic RPGs used to have (Like EOB where priest and mage was mandatory, and they didn't had any warning either).

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Finished..

Unread postby SubEffect » 22 Mar 2014, 12:43

Well, it took me a while, but I finally finished. Minor spoilers here, just my final thoughts and some spell names..


I went through the game with a 'standard' party of a tank, damage dealer, buffer/healer, and a nuker. That being, specially, a crusader, bladedancer, druid, and freemage. I found this team to be fairly effective overall and I didn't feel like I was really missing anything. The druid was my main healer for most of the game with regeneration and finally nurture for the bigger fights. Later on, the crusader/paladin ended up being fairly helpful with healing as well, so I had two characters, one with resurrect (who was sometimes the last man standing - another good reason to have a paladin). I focused on air and fire magic early on for the freemage, even knowing that she coudn't max out in fire (fire seemed to be the less resisted type early on). Later, air/lightning was invaluable and I didn't really go down the dark magic path too much. I loved playing some of my favorite classes - I always use a druid and some type of holy warrior and a pure mage class. For me, the druid was probably one of my stronger characters. I didn't use him for damage dealing too often (I didn't even have tsunami until post-game).

Anyhow - overall a very fun game. It did make me feel like I was playing some of the older versions. I think I started M&M with III, with my favorites probably being VII and the combined IV/V World of Xeen. So for me, this was a good mix of those games, especially with some of the same sound effects and music. I played on Warrior mode which made it fairly challenging, but i can't say what the difference would have been on Normal mode. I feel things were fairly balanced and there were only a few times where I wanted to throw my mouse out the window - but rightly so as it was end-game (some battles/sequences were really tough to get through at the end).

For those just starting out - my original comments around reliance on potions and money to buy them proved to be less of a big deal later on. My druid was able to keep us healed enough through battles to rest after a while, so really the bulk of money spent was on supplies and sometimes a weapon or two if I wasn't finding upgrades enough. I ended the the game with around 250,000 gold and really didn't have anything to spend it on. I think the reliance on potions went away halfway through Act II. I'd only use them during long battles, but most certainly in Act IV since you end up fighting some very large battles with hordes of mobs.

So, kudos and thanks to Limbic/Ubi for bringing back this series! I think the recent editions of the M&M games have been quite good. I certainly hope there's a chance at an M&M XI. For me, now, it's probably back to Heroes VI and... well.. Dark Souls II :)
Currently playing:
MM Heroes VI
Dark Souls II (PS3)
Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII (PS3)


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