Economy in Heroes-IV

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Dalai
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Economy in Heroes-IV

Postby Dalai » Nov 24 2006, 8:47

It's no secret that economy component in HoMM-IV is a bit weaker than in HoMM-III, for example.

One good example is Mage guild building. In HoMM-III it required a lot of resources. In HoMM-IV it doesn't. It's not an overlook, because in HoMM-IV mage guild is useless without heroes who are able to cast high level spells, and building such heroes requires a lot of effort, unlike in HoMM-III.

So we can say that in HoMM-IV NWC took more weight on heroes not only from creatures, but from economy too.

But it still seems a good idea to strenthen economy component in HoMM-IV. This topic is for your ideas in this regard.

We have couple ideas for future versions of Equilibris, but want to hear more.

P.S. Please don't offer to make Mage guilds more expensive :)
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Postby pacobac » Nov 27 2006, 14:17

The problem about magic guild is: if you haven’t, you can’t play, neutral kill easy your little heroe at the beginning, other problem is equilibration against barbarian castle, GM magic is very more powerful than gm barbarian skill, on one of mine map, I script barbarian castle to have level 3 creatures against magic guild in other castle…..
I think growth of barbarian dwelling is good way to better equilibration…

I mean cost of magic guild is not so important if good final equilibration….. (sorry for my poor English, I’m French…)

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Postby Metathron » Nov 28 2006, 0:01

I'm not completely sure what you are referring to here exactly...

If it's the fact that the highest money producing building in a town is the town hall, I don't really see it as an issue. Not only that, but I actually prefer this system to the HoMM III/V capitol that earns you 4000 gold pieces, because in the first instance you really make efforts to increase your budget, whereas in the second you can afford to a much greater extent to kick back and let the cash accumulate. Imagine how important capturing a gold mine is for a HoMM IV player (or HoMM I-II) as opposed to the HoMM III/IV player: The first will jump with joy at doubling their income whereas the second will only increase it by 20%.

So, yes, I prefer my town to generate 1000, rather than 4000, gold units per day, though I would not be completely averse to introducing buildings along the lines of the HoMM II statue.
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Postby Wildbear » Nov 28 2006, 2:35

I think a very week point in economy for H4 is the nobility skill family, more precisely the estates and mining skills. They can just completely unbalance the game in my opinion.

Estates should be divided by two, and the percentage for each level as well (5%/level). That's:
Basic: 50 gold/day
Advanced: 100 gold/day
Expert: 150 gold/day
Master: 200 gold/day
Grandmaster: 250 gold/day
This would avoid that dumb "strategy" of buying one lord hero, let him see one experience wheel and let him stay in the castle forever (until other free xp places are found).

Mining should be decreased too. In my opinion, the best for it would be:
Basic: 1 ore and 1 wood over a 7 days period
Advanced: 1 ore and 1 wood over a 7 days period + 1 other resource
Expert: 1 ore and 1 wood over a 6 days period + 2 other resource
Master: 2 ores and 2 woods over a 6 days period + 3 other resources
Grandmaster: 2 ores and 2 woods over a 6 days period + 4 other resources
And again +5%/level.

Another nice addition would be to have some creatures produce income in some way, but I think it isn't possible for now.
Bandits and pirates getting money from enemies for example (not much, 1 or 2 gold/creature at best, 50 from heroes excepted thief heroes), or gold golem being recycled by the winner of the battle into some gold (20 gold for example).

Now if it was also possible to have h2-like statues, it would be great. Excepted that the income for them should be 100 gold/day for 1200 gold +2 ore/wood or some resources depending on the town type.
In that case, I would lower town hall income to 400-600-800, and add a +150 gold/day from the tavern.
Or maybe 100 for the tavern and 150 for the statue, that has to be tested. It could probably make it possible to begin the game faster (since most taverns are already built when you begin the game).
It could also help balancing the resource costs using different resources to build the statue.
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Postby pacobac » Nov 28 2006, 10:19

begining with lord is very bad to play online game !!
if you decrease his skill, nobody could ever play lord.....

one way of h4 evolution is favorit learn second skill to become advanced class easier.....

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Postby Metathron » Nov 28 2006, 11:03

I disagree with Wildbear's suggestions.

I would not go decreasing the income of the Town Hall which is already on the more meager side, but at least it motivates the player to go out looking for another gold source, and capturing a gold mine is very rewarding. Lowering the TH income would be going too far IMHO.

I don't think the mining and estates skills are overpowered. First, if you invest in them, it means this hero will be completely useless in battles with no combat/tactics or magic skills (or even at least scouting-pathfinding to increase the army's movement). And even if you shut him into your town after he GMs in estates and mining, you will still have used up time and resources (treasure chests on the map, for example) that would otherwise have gone to your main hero(es), so I think it's a relatively fair bargain.

As for statues or similar buildings, would that even be possible to implement, space-wise? There don't appear to be empty slots in most towns IIRC?
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Postby Wildbear » Nov 28 2006, 15:47

pacobac wrote:begining with lord is very bad to play online game !!
if you decrease his skill, nobody could ever play lord.....

one way of h4 evolution is favorit learn second skill to become advanced class easier.....

Beginning with lord may be difficult from a military standpoint, but they make buildings ridiculously cheap after a few days with mining and estates. On maps with low amounts of resources, or well guarded mines, they're absolutely overpowered. Such amounts of resources would still be enough to give them the advantage they had,

Now if you still want them faster at the beginning, they could (if possible) add a bonus on resources found (+1 resource per mining level, +5% gold per estates level for example). Since most resources are found at the beginning, it should compensate the loss on maps with many resources available without unbalancing it on maps with less resources.

Metathron wrote:I would not go decreasing the income of the Town Hall which is already on the more meager side, but at least it motivates the player to go out looking for another gold source, and capturing a gold mine is very rewarding. Lowering the TH income would be going too far IMHO.

You should read carefully, I actually increased it. But I made it faster at the beginning, identical in the middle, and longer to reach the full income in the end.
Beginning with village hall and tavern would rise the incomes to 550 gold/day (was 500 before), then building the town all gives 750 gold/day (same as before), building the city hall only gives 950 gold/day (was 1000 before) but then you can still build the statue and that's 1050 gold/day (was still 1000 before), that's more than originally.
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Postby Le_Faucheur » Nov 29 2006, 22:18

haven:
altar of light: maybe it shouldn't require the abbey
knights' chapter: maybe it shouldn't require the blacksmith

currently the cost of level 4 in this castle is mainly based on which level 3 you choose. it is pretty annoying if you want crusaders + angels or monks + champions

preserve:
treetop lodge: should require something else than this extremly expensive blacksmith (it makes you lose times + you lose even more time because elves are bad at the beginning of the game) I thought about the mage guild, may not fit very well, but at least it's more affordable.

academy:
golden pavilion: should require at least the treasury (maybe the alchemist's shop)

dragon factory: could only require the university

asylum:
volcanic vent: maybe should require the battle academy (didn't find better here ;| )

stronghold:
cliff nest: requires citadel

behemoth crag: requires arsenal

ogre fort: requires magic dampener

nomad tents: requires arena of honor

harpy peak: arena of honor too?

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Postby Slayer of Cliffracers » Dec 23 2006, 22:35

I think a very week point in economy for H4 is the nobility skill family, more precisely the estates and mining skills. They can just completely unbalance the game in my opinion.


Nothing is as unbalancing as grandmaster melee+combat. Once you don't need creatures any more, but your 1 hero can slaughter whole armies, there is a standard of unbalancedness to be lived up to.

Thus in order to balance things, stuff like nobility needs to be just as unbalanced.
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Postby Wildbear » Dec 24 2006, 0:56

Equilibris is meant to balance everything in the game, not to make things evenly unbalanced, and the subject here is economy, not fights.

Besides, what I propose is not to completely remove the unbalancing elements, but to lower their effects. As you wrote, combat skills are unbalanced, but your solution is to let it the way it is and try to have a few other things equally unbalanced, when I'd like to see their effect lowered so they can't unbalance the game the way they do.

Of course, making things so people won't have craesusean amounts of gold, titanic armies of colossuses, olympic movement points or such is always unpopular. But such things are closer from exploits than they are from features, and should be fixed accordingly.
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Postby pacobac » Dec 25 2006, 17:44

be careful !!

Code: Select all

grandmaster melee+combat.
is weak on multi player game, on equilibris, tactical skill is very stronger (with boost arties...), 6 level 4 (80 attack and defense) kill so easy gm melee, equilibris 6.0 need growth barbarian castle !!

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Postby iKossu » Mar 19 2007, 20:23

I read your thoughts about economy. They got me thinking that maybe upgrading to Town Hall and City Hall would have some sort of a non-permanent negative effect on the income. By that I mean something like a random chance for decreased income (or even negative income) in a turn. At the mildest my idea would mean a progressive increase of gold income like +25 or +50 per turn up to +250 gold pieces or so.

But what I'm trying say is that I'd like to make this into a balanced selection to make: to upgrade or not to.

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Postby BrennusWhiskey » Mar 20 2007, 17:35

pacobac wrote:be careful !!

Code: Select all

grandmaster melee+combat.
is weak on multi player game, on equilibris, tactical skill is very stronger (with boost arties...), 6 level 4 (80 attack and defense) kill so easy gm melee, equilibris 6.0 need growth barbarian castle !!


Iam no agree with u;
on small maps like agathon it seems to easy wins with barbs (one GM barb hero) maybe I wrong I tried one time;)

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Re: Economy in Heroes-IV

Postby gravyluvr » Mar 20 2007, 19:00

Dalai wrote:So we can say that in HoMM-IV NWC took more weight on heroes not only from creatures, but from economy too.

But it still seems a good idea to strenthen economy component in HoMM-IV. This topic is for your ideas in this regard.


So when we are talking economy are we talking hero based economy or town based economy?

Heroes based economy

I've often thought that a player should be forced to give up a little in order to utilize the strategies that are quite common.

Examples...

Hit and Run. When you are trying to weaken a guard sometimes you will attack with heroes and few or no creatures in order to make taking it the next time a little easier and before your last hero falls you RUN. Shouldn't their be an escape fee of say 500gp per hero?

Dead hero ressurections. When a hero dies and you deliver the corpse to the town they are brought back to life but there is no cost associated for the resurrection. The POI costs 1000 gp. Should resurrecting a dead hero in a town also cost you something (500gp)?

Pathfinder penalty... A thief would steal money right?
Lords would demand higher salaries wouldn't they?
In general each hero should demand a salary in order to stay loyal to your army. This would require you to set aside resources to have multiple heroes in addition to the original fee to recruit them.

Town based economy

I always thought it would be nice to have a shop where you could sell your wares that you no longer needed. What do I need with all those silly potions? Borrow from the Might and Magic world and have a potions shop, armory, etc. willing to buy your items too.

The only other town based economy items might be to allow for charging for caravans.
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Re: Economy in Heroes-IV

Postby iKossu » Mar 21 2007, 8:28

gravyluvr wrote:Shouldn't their be an escape fee of say 500gp per hero?
Should resurrecting a dead hero in a town also cost you something (500gp)?


Yes and absolutely!

gravyluvr wrote:In general each hero should demand a salary in order to stay loyal to your army. This would require you to set aside resources to have multiple heroes in addition to the original fee to recruit them.


Imho, this is the best idea gravylur introduced with his post. This seems to be a good solution for all the overwhelming stacks of multiple heroes out there. :hoo: It would of course affect the economic side of the game too. Btw, what it comes to this problem, another solution would be to make them fight for experience they gain. And by that I don't mean battles but a certain "slice" of the gained experience that would go to waste (5%, 10% or 20% at the most). It would of course vary according to how many heroes there's in the army.

gravyluvr wrote:I always thought it would be nice to have a shop where you could sell your wares that you no longer needed.


I think this one is coming to Equilibris in some point. It will be great since I hate it when my inventory is full of crap.

gravyluvr wrote:The only other town based economy items might be to allow for charging for caravans.


I also have introduced this idea on some topic. :proud: It could a nice feature but it's kinda minor one.

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Re: Economy in Heroes-IV

Postby klaymen » Mar 21 2007, 10:01

gravyluvr wrote:In general each hero should demand a salary in order to stay loyal to your army. This would require you to set aside resources to have multiple heroes in addition to the original fee to recruit them.


I think that the first hero (you recieve in the beginning) should recieve no salary (1 hero with his army is standard, but additional heroes should be paid for helping the main hero). And in the RPG maps if you start with a hero and he wants money every day.....
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Postby BrennusWhiskey » Mar 29 2007, 16:00

I think economy that is good point on homm4; I mean is always not enough money for everything. U must always choose buy units or build.
That is great point strategic games!

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Postby BrennusWhiskey » Mar 29 2007, 16:11

My next idea to let more important for creatures; I mean great hero can fight alone with hundreds creatures and I think its bad. When u have GM melee u can beat some big armies...
So... more creatures and harder way to advance for hero!

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Postby iKossu » Mar 30 2007, 8:21

I guess something could be done to that but not too radical. Multiple heroes in an army is bigger problem than that, right? And, besides, it's called Heroes of Might and Magic IV...

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Postby BrennusWhiskey » Mar 30 2007, 10:10

Yes! I agree :D


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